A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 1 of 8

THE SPEAKERS.

Samuell. Daniell. The wife of Samuell. M. B. Schoolemaister. The good wife R.

Sam. YOu are well mette olde acquaintance, I am glad to seé you looke so well, howe doe all our good friendes in your Countrey.

Dan. I trust they be all in good health, they were when I came from home, I am sorry to seé you looke so pale, what haue you beéne sicke lately?

Sam. Truely no, I thanke God I haue had my health pretily well, but yet me thinke my meate doth me no good of late.

Dan. What is the matter man, doe you take thought and care for the world, take heéde of that, for the Scripture saith, worldly sorrow worketh death. 2. Cor. 7.10. It is a great sinne rising from vnbeleéfe, and distrust in Gods prouidence, when men be ouer pensiue for the world.

Sam. In deéde my minde is troubled, but not for that which you say, for I hope in God I shall not want so long as I liue.

Dan. Is it any trouble of conscience for sinne? If it be, that may turne to good.

Sam. O, no, no. I know no cause why.

Dan. Why, what is it then, if I may be so bold, I pray you tell me. I thinke you take me for your friend.

Sam. In deede I haue alwaies found you my very good friend, and I am sure you will giue me the best counsell you can, truely we dwell here in a bad countrey, I think euen one of the worst in England.

Dan. Is it so? I thinke you dwell in a fine countrey, in a sweéte wholesome aire, and fruitfull grounds.

Sam. Aire man? I finde no fault with the aire, there be naughty people,

Dan. Naughty people? where shall a man dwell, and not finde them? swearers, liars, raylers, slaunderers, drunckards, adulterers, riotous, vnthriftes, dicers, and proude high minded persons, are euery where to be founde in great plenty.

Sam. Nay, I doe not meane them, I care not for them. These witches, these euill fauoured old witches doe trouble me.

Dan. What doe you take your selfe to be bewitched?

Sam. No, no, I trust no euill spirite can hurt me, but I heare of much harme done by them: they lame men and kill their cattle, yea they destroy both men and children. They say there is scarce any towne or village in all this shire, but there is one or two witches at the least in it. In good sooth, I may tell it to you as to my friend, when I goe but into my closes, I am afraide, for I see nowe and then a Hare; which my conscience giueth me is a witch, or some witches spirite, sheé stareth so vppon me. And sometime I seé an vgly weasell runne through my yard, and there is a foule great catte sometimes in my Barne, which I haue no liking vnto.

Dan. You neuer had no hurt done yet, had you by any witch?

Sam. Trust me I cannot tell, but I feare me I haue, for there be two or three in our towne which I like not, but especially an old woman, I haue beéne as careful to please her as euer I was to please mine own mother, and to giue her euer anon one thing or other, and yet me thinkes shee frownes at me now and then. And I had a hogge which eate his meate with his fellowes and was very well to our thinking ouer night, and in the morning he was starke dead. My wife hath had fiue or sixe hennes euen of late dead. Some of my neighbours wishe me to burne some thing aliue, as a henne or a hogge. Others will me in time to seéke helpe at the handes of some cunning man, before I haue any further harme. I wold be glad to do for the best.

Dan. Haue you any cunning man hereabout, that doth helpe?

Sam. There is one, they say, here a twenty miles of at T. B. which hath holpe many. And thus much I know, there was one of mine acquaintance but two miles hence, which had great losses, he lost two or threé kine; six hogs, he would not haue tooke fifteene shillings a hog for them, and a mare. He went to that same man, and told him hee suspected an old woman in the parish. And I think he told me, that he shewed him her in a Glasse, and tolde him shee had threé or foure imps, some call them puckrels, one like a gray catte, an other like a weasell, an other like a mouse, a vengeance take them, it is great pitty the countrey is not ridde of them, and told him also what he shoulde doe, it is halfe a yeare agoe, and he neuer had any hurt since. There is also a woman at R. H. fiue and twenty miles hence, that hath a great name, and great resort there is dayly vnto her. A neighbour of mine had his childe taken lame, a girle of ten yeares olde, and such a paine in her backe, that shee could not sit vpright. He went to that woman, she tolde him he had some badde neighbour, the childe was forespoken, as he suspected; marry if he would goe home, and bring her som of the clothes which the child lay in all night, sheé would tell him certainely. He went home, and put a table Napkin about her necke all night, and in the morning tooke it with him, and sheé told him the girle was bewitched in deede, and so told him what hee should doe, and he had remedy, the girle is as wel at this day, and a pretty quicke girle. There was another of my neighbours had his wife much troubled, and he went to her, and sheé tolde him, his wife was haunted with a Fairy. I cannot tell what sheé bad him doe, but the woman is mery at this howre. I haue heard, I dare, not say it is so, that sheé weareth about her Sainct Iohns Gospel, or some part of it.

Dan. If you haue such cunning men and women, what neede you be so much afraide?

Sam. Alas man, I could teeme it to goe and some counsell me to goe to the man at T. B. and some to the woman at R. H. And betweene them both I haue lingred the time, and feare I may be spoiled before I get remedy. Some wishe me to beate and claw the witch vntill I fetch bloud on her, and to threaten her that I will haue her hanged, if I knew which were the best I would doe it.

Dan. I perceiue your danger is betweéne two stooles.

Sam. It is very true, if I had heard but of one, I should haue gone ere this time, and I am glad that I met with you. I pray you let me haue your best counsell; I trust you beare me good will.

Dan. Truely I will giue you the best counsell I can, which I am sure shall doe you good, if you will followe it, for in deéde I pitty your case, it is most certaine you are bewitched.

Sam. Bewitched, doe you thinke I am bewitched? I feele no harme in my body, you make me more afraide.

Dan. Nay I doe not thinke that the olde woman hath bewitched you, or that your body is bewitched, but the diuell hath bewitched your minde, with blindnes and vnbeleéfe, to draw you from God, euen to worship himselfe, by seéking help at the hands of deuils. It is a lamentable case to seé how the deuill hath bewitched thousands at this day to run after him: and euen to offer sacrifice vnto him.

Sam. I defie the deuill, worship him? fie vpon him, I hate him with all my hart. Do you thinke any seéke help at his hands? we seek help against him. I think he neuer doth good he hurteth, but he neuer helpeth any.

Dan. It is not in these matters to be taken as wee imagine, but as the word of God teacheth. What though a man think he worshippeth not deuils nor seeketh not help at their handes, as he is persuaded, nor hath any such intent, is he euer the neére, when as yet it shall be found by Gods word, that he doth worship them, and seék vnto them for help?

Sam. Doe you thinke then that there be no witches? Doth not God suffer wicked people to do harme? Or doe you thinke that the cunning men doe helpe by the deuill? I would be glad to reason with you, but I haue smal knowledge in the scripturs. We haue a Schoolemaister that is a good pretie scholler, they say, in the Latine tongue, one M. B. he is gone to my house euen now, I pray you let me intreat you to go thither, you two may reason the matter, for you are learned.

Dan. I could be content, but it will aske some time, and I am going to such a place vpon speciall busines.

Sam. I pray you let mee intreat you: Foure or fiue houres is not so much.

Dan. Well, I will goe with you.

Sam. Wife, I haue brought an olde friend of mine, I pray theé bid him welcome.

The wife. He is verie welcome. But trulie man, I am angrie with you, and halfe out of patience, that you go not to seéke helpe against yonder same olde beast I haue another hen dead this night. Other men can seéke remedy. Here is M. B. tels me, that the good wife R. all the laste weeke could not make her butter come. She neuer rested vntil she had got her husbande out to the woman at R. H. and when he came home, they did but heat a spit red hotte, and thrust into the creame, vsing certaine wordes, as shee willed him, and it came as kindly as anie butter that euer she made. I met the olde filth this morning, Lord, how sowerlie she looked vpon me, & mumbled as she went, I heard part of her wordes. Ah (quod she) you haue an honest man to your husband, I heare how he doth vse me. In trueth, husband, my stomacke did so rise against her, that I coulde haue found in my heart to haue flowen vpon her, and scratched her, but that I feared she would be too strong for me. It is a lustie olde queane. I wished that the good wife R. had bene with me. I pray you, good husbande, let me intreat you to goe to that same good woman, you may ride thither in halfe a day.

Sam. Wife, I pray theé be content, I haue intreated this mine olde friend to reason with M. B. for he tels mee that we be in a verie foule errour.

M. B. I suppose, so farre as my learning and capacitie doe extend, that small reasoning may serue. The worde of God doeth shew plainlie that there be witches, & commaundeth they should be put to death. Experience hath taught too too manie, what harmes they doe. And if anie haue the gift to minister help against them, shall we refuse it? Shall we not drinke when we are a thirst? Shall wee not warme vs when wee are a colde? It is pitie that anie man should open his mouth anie way to defend them, their impietie is so great.

Dan. For my part, I go not about to defend witches. I denie not but that the deuill worketh by them, And that they ought to be put to death. We ought also to seeke remedie against them: but as I told my friend, the deuil doth bewitch men by meanes of these witches, and lead them from God, euen to follow himself, to offer sacrifice vnto him to worship him, to obey his wil, to commit manie grieuous sinnes, and to be drowned in manifold errours.

M. B. If you haue this meaning, that witches and sorcerers ar bewitched by the deuil, that they forsake God, and follow him, that they worship and obey him, and doe sacrifice vnto him, and commit manie hainous sinnes, I agreé with you, for I tak it, they euen vow themselues to the deuill, or els he would not be so readie to doe them seruice. But if you mean, that such as seek remedie against them, & wold haue them rooted out, be so seduced and mis-led by the deuill, as you speake, I say your speach is rash and foolish, for they that be earnest against witches, be earnest against the deuil, they defie the deuil, they seek to resist him, and to roote out his instruments. Now, if you were a man that had any learning, you should seé, that contraries cannot be in the same subiect, at one instant, in the same part, and in the same respect: how then can a man hate the deuill, defie the deuill and his workes, and yet follow him at one time?

Dan. I know that witches and coniurers are seduced and become the vassals of Satan: they be his seruants, and not he theirs, as you speake. But I mean indeed that multitudes are seduced and led from God, to follow the deuil, by means of witches & coniurers: yea, I speak it of those, not which are caried of a godlie zeale, but of a blinde rage and mad furie against them. If I speake this rashlie and foolishlie, as you say, and your self learned as you boast, and I vnlearned, I shall be the more easilie ouerthrowne. But I speake so truly, and can so well iustifie all that I haue said by the word of God, that your learning and best skill, shall not be able to disprooue the same. Your logicke at the first doth faile you. Not that contraries can be in the same subiect at the same instant, in the same part, and in the same respect. But herein you are vtterly blinde and deceiued, that you name contraries, and take it that the first of them, as namelie to hate the deuill, to defie him and his workes, are in them, when as indeed they are in them but in imagination. For if men say and think they defie the deuill and his workes, and through blindnes and infidelitie, are euen bewitched, and seduced to followe the deuill, and to do his will, doth their speach and blinde imagination make the things indeed to be in them? What if a poore begger woman say and thinke that she is a Queéne: is she therfore no begger, begging still her bread? or is she rid of her lice?

M. B. Nay, if you iudge, I haue done. If men be earnest against the deuill, and defie him and all his workes, are you to iudge of their conscience, and to say they defie him but in imagination, and follow him, and worship him in deede? is not God alone the iudge ouer mens hearts? Againe, do you compare those that are in their right mind, with such as be mad, or out of their wits?

Dan. I knowe that God alone is the searcher of the heart, touching the thinges which lie hid in secrete: But where things are open and manifest, the tree is known by the fruits, so far as we may goe. As if a man professe the faith of Iesus Christ soundlie, in all pointes according to the word of God, and doth frame his life thereafter in doing good workes: it is verie wicked for anie man to iudge of him, that he is an hypocrite, and that he doth all of vaine glorie. And yet it may be that the Lord, who discerneth the secrete intents of the heart, seeth indeed that he is but an hypocrite. On the contrarie parte, where a man professeth in wordes that he doeth defie the deuill and all his workes, and yet when it commeth to the triall of Gods word, hee is found to be seduced, and wrapped in blinde errours of the deuill, in infidelitie, and euill works, in which he fulfilleth the will of Satan, and honoureth him in the place of God: Shal we say that this is a good man because of his words and imagination, that he defieth the deuill and his works? Wo be to them that cal good euil, and euil good. Esa. 5. We may say they are in bad case, except they repent, and turne from following Satan. But yet I say, that a faithful man may erre in some of these thinges through weaknesse of faith, and through ignorance. And therefore, here men may not be too rash in iudgment. And now wheras you find fault, that I make comparison between such as be mad and those that be in their right mind, it is your ignorāce, which do not consider that ther be two kinds of madnes, or being out of their right mind, the one for matters of this worlde, the other for thinges spirituall and heauenlie. There bee which are in their wittes for this worlde, which touching spirituall things are as farre awrie in their imaginations, as the poore beggar, which thinketh she is a goodlie queene. Doth not the holie Apostle say, that because men receiue not the loue of the truth, God wil send them strong delusion to beleeue lies. 2. Thess. 2. And what is that, but that Satan shall seduce, illude and bewitch their minds, to make them beleeue that they worshippe and follow God, when they worship and follow him?

M. B, Doe you take that to be S. Paules meaning? Doth Satan bewitch mens mindes, and leade them into falsehoode and errour, making them beleéue they worshipp God, when they worship deuils?

Dan. S. Paul speaketh there indeéd of the comming of the great Antichrist in the power of the Deuill. Nowe, those which are seduced and worship Antichrist, think they worship God: but marke what S. Iohn sayth, All the world wondred, and followed the beast, and worshipped the dragon which gaue power to the beast: & they worshipped the beast. Reuelat. 13. And looke in the 12. chapter of the Reuelation, and you shall find that the Dragon, which the Popery doth worship in stead of God, is the Deuill.

M. B. Trulie I like your wordes well, I am persuaded the deuill doth seduce and bewitch mens mindes: But touching these that seek help at the hands of cunning men and women against witches, I cannot thinke so hardlie of them. I may be awry, I seé well: I will not be obstinate, if the word of God shew me mine errour, Let vs euen friendly conferre of the matter. Be not offended with me, and for my part, I will speake all that I knowe or thinke.

Dan. I must intreate you likewise to beare with my plaine speaches. And let vs in the matters proceéde from one point to another, standing onlie vpon that, wherein we shall be found to differ in iudgment. And let Gods word be the Iudge betweene vs.

Sam. I like this wel, though I can say but litle, I wil sit and heare you.

Dan. What is the first question that we shal handle?

M. B. I heard you say, if I did not mistake your speach that there be witches that worke by the deuill. But yet I pray you tell me, doe you think there be such? I know some are of opinion there be none.

Dan. It is so euident by the Scriptures, and in all experience, that there be witches which worke by the deuill, or rather I may say, the deuill worketh by them, that such as go about to prooue the contrarie, doe shewe themselues but cauillers.

M. B. I am glad we agreé in that point, I hope we shall in the rest. What say you to this? that the witches haue their spirits, some hath one, some hath more, as two, threé, foure, or fiue, some in one likenesse, and some in another, as like cattes, weasils, toads, or mise, whome they nourish with milke, or with a chicken, or by letting them sucke now and then a drop of blood: whome they call when they be offended with anie, and send them to hurt them in their bodies; yea, to kill them, and to kill their cattell?

Dan. Here is great deceit, and great illusion, here the deuil leadeth the ignorant people into foule errours, by which hee draweth them hedlong into manie grieuous sinnes.

M. B. Nay then I seé you are awrie, if you denie these things, and say they be but illusions. They haue bene prooued, and prooued againe, euen by the manifold confessions of the witches themselues. I am out of all doubt in these, and could in manie particulars lay open what hath fallen out. I did dwell in a village within these fiue yeares, where there was a man of good wealth, and suddainlie within ten daies space, he had three kine died, his gelding worth ten pounds fell lame, he was himself taken with a gret pain in his back, & a child of seuē years old died. He sent to the woman at R. H. and she said he was plagued by a witch, adding moreouer, that there were three women witches in that towne, and one man witch: willing him to look whom he most suspected: he suspected one old woman, and caused her to be caried before a Iustice of Peace and examined: with much a doe at the last shee confessed all: Which was this in effect: that she had threé spirits: one like a cat, which she called Lightfoot, another like a Toad, which she called Lunch, the third like a Weasill, which she called Makeshift. This Lightfoot, she said, one mother Barlie of W. solde her aboue sixteene yeares agoe, for an ouen cake and told her the Cat would doe hergood seruice, if she woulde, she might send her of her errand: this Cat was with her but a while, but the Weasill and the Toad came and offered their seruice: The Cat would kill kine, the Weasil would kill horses, the Toade would plague men in their bodies. She sent them all threé (as she confessed) against this man: She was committed to the prison, and there shee died before the Assises. I could tell you of manie such: I had no minde to dwell in that place any longer.

Dan. You mistake me, I do not meane that the things are not, but my meaning is, that the deuill by such thinges both beguyle and seduce ignorant men, and lead them into errours and grieuous sinnes. And let vs examine euerie parcell of that which you set down in your speach, and you shall seé no lesse.

M. B. That is it which I would faine seé: You confesse they haue spirits, some one, some more, and in such likenesses: what errour be the people led into by that?

Dan. First, cōsider this that ther be multituds & armies of deuils, as we seé in the gospel, yt manie deuils wer entred into one man, & Christ saying, What is thy name? answer is made, Legion, for we are manie. Mark. 5. Now, although the deuils be manie, yet they be all caried with such hatred against God, with such desire to haue him dishonored and blasphemed, and burne with such bloudy malice and crueltie against men, that they bend their studie all together, one helping and furthering another what they can in their worke: in so much that the Scripture doeth speake of them, as if they were but one deuill: for S. Peter sayth, Your aduersarie the deuill goeth about like a roring lion seeking whom he may deuour. 1. Pet. 5. And in the Reuelation chapter 12. all the deuils make that great red dragon: And our Sauiour doth shewe how close they ioyne in one, when he saith, If Satan be deuided against Satan, or if Satan cast foorth Satan, how shall his kingdom endure Matth. 12. now then, whether the witch deale, as sheé supposeth, with one spirit, or with manie, it commeth all to one effect, thus farre, that one dealeth not alone, but with the helpe of others. So that he or she that hath familiaritie with one deuill, it is as much as if it wer with an hundreth. Moreouer, the deuils be spirits, they haue no bodily shape or likenesse but yet can make an apparance of a shape, as appeareth by the inchanters before Pharao, when their rods were turned into serpents in shew. Exod. 7. And then one deuill can seém to be foure or fiue, and foure or fiue can seéme to be one: It is therefore but the craft of Satan, to make shewe of more or lesse.