A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 2 of 8

M. B. Do you not thinke then, that where the more deuils be, there is the greater power of Satan?

Dan. Yes, but it can not be discerned by his appearing to the witch in shew of more or lesse: For one can seéme ten vnto her, and ten can seéme one.

M. B. Well, I doe not mislike al this, I pray you proceed forward.

Dan. Then further marke well howe the holie Scriptures doe paint out the deuils to bee mightie terrible spirits, full of power, rage, and crueltie, compared to a great fierie red dragon, Reuel. 12. to a greedie or hungrie lion, that roreth after the pray, 1. Pet. 5. And called by S. Paul Principalities, and Powers, the Rulers of the darknesse of this world: now, when they take vpon them the shapes of such paltrie vermine, as Cats, Mise, Toads, and Weasils, it is euen of subtiltie to couer and hide his mightie tyrannie, and power which he exerciseth ouer the heartes of the wicked. It is most necessarie for vs all to know, what strong aduersaries we haue to encounter withall, that we may fly vnto the Lord God, and seek to bee armed with his power against them.

M. B. Well, what will you inferre vpon this? I cannot deny but that the scriptures doe paint out the deuils to be mightie terrible spirits, and so they may be, although they appeare but like Cats or weasils.

Dan. I doe not say they be not mightie and terrible because they appeare in such shapes, but I affirme, that their appearing so, is to couer and hide their mightinesse and effectuall working, which they exercise in the darke harts of men. And marke well I pray you, the power of deuils is in the hearts of men, as to harden the heart, to blinde the eies of the mind, and from the lustes and concupiscences which are in them, to inflame them vnto wrath, malice, enuy, and cruell murthers: to puffe them vp in pride, arrogancy and vaine glory: to entice them vnto wantonnesse, and whordomes, and all vncleannesse. And about these things they worke continually, and with such efficacy, that without the power of the glorious passion and resurrection of our Lord Iesus Christ, which we haue by faith, they cannot be withstood, and they will seeme to be but meane fellowes, busied about making drink that it shall not work in the fat, in keéping cheése from running, and butter from comming, in killing hennes or hogges, or making men lame.

M. B. May they not doe both the one and the other?

Dan. Yea, but this is my meaning, that while they be occupied about the greatest things, as in stirring vp Tyrants and wicked men to persecute, to reproch and blaspheme the Gospell, which pulleth them downe, to set diuision and warres between kingdoms and kings, hatred and discord betweén man and wife, and contention betweene brethren: yea, to set all in a broyle and confusion: they would seéme to be busied about trifles, and about these they busie mens mindes, that they may not obserue and take heed of them in those other.

M. B. I perceiue your meaning, but yet I doe not conceiue whereunto you chiefly tend: for do not they which looke vpon these harmes done by witches, confesse that the deuill doth all those things which you mention?

Dan. The ignorant sort, which are so terrified by witches, do in words after a sort, confesse so much as you say, but when it commeth to the matter, they deny it in effect. For mark this, the deuils continuallie compasse the soule of man about, to shoot it full of their fierie dartes. Ephes. 6. euen to wound it to death with all wicked sinnes. The deuill goeth about like a roring lion, seeking whome hee may deuour. 1. Pet. 5. And they by this craft which they vse by means of the witches, make the blind people imagin that they neuer come nigh them, but when the witches are angrie and doe send them, and that they are easilie driuen away when they do come, as by burning some quick thing, as henne, or hogge, or by beating and drawing bloud vpon the witch. Such people as can thus driue him away, or by thrusting a spitte red hot into their creame, are farre from knowing the spirituall battel, in which we are to warre vnder the banner of Christ against the deuill, much lesse doe they know how to put on (as S. Paule willeth) the whole armour of God, to resist and ouercome him. Ephes. 6. He may deale with their soules euen as he listeth, when they take him not present but vpon such sending, and where such hurt doth follow in their bodies or goods.

M. B. I doe not denie, but that the deuils seeke chiefly for to destroy the soules of men: But (as I tak it) you confesse, that they being sent by the witches, doe also those bodilie harmes: and as yet I see no reason why they may not seeke remedie against such harmes, and driue him away by anie good meanes: doth the worde of God forbid vs to vse meanes? If I be sicke, shall I not take physicke? If I bee thirstie, shall I not drinke? Indeed I am of your minde, though I did neuer marke so much before, that the deuill dealeth subtillie in this, that by dealing in such small matters, he couereth himselfe in the greater, as though he came not neere, nor did not medle but in such maner: But here standeth the case, I resist him in those greater, may I not also vse those helpes which driue him away in the lesser? I will if I can driue him away in all things.

Dan. Now the deuils are sent by the witches, and how they doe those bodily harmes, wee are not yet come vnto, and there lie two of the chiefe subtilties of the deuill in them, by which he deceiueth the multitude. But by occasion we are fallen into the mention of remedie to driue them away, Because (I say) such as thus driue him away, know not the spirituall battell, much lesse how to put on the whol armour of God to ouercome the deuil: Order doth require that we speak first of his sending, and then of those bodilie harmes which he doth, & afterward of these meanes which are vsed to repell him. Let vs therefore step one step backe againe, if you agreé to the rest which I haue spoken.

M. B. With a good will: for so we shall omit no part. But I thought we had fullie agreéd in this, that the witches do send their spirits, and doe manie harmes both vnto men and beasts: because we haue it confirmed by daylie experience: and vnlesse you will denie that which is manifest, I doubt not but we shall accorde in these.

Dan. I say the witches do send their spirits.

M. B. What shal we neéd then to stand vpon that point in which we are agreéd?

Dan. Yes· though we agree that they send them, yet we may dissent in diuers thinges about this sending. As first, tell me, whether doe you thinke that the witch or the Deuill is the seruaunt, which of them commaundeth, and which obeyeth?

M. B. How can I tell that? It is thought hee becommeth her seruaunt, and where she is displeased, and would be reuenged, she hyreth him for to doe it. The witches thē selues haue confessed thus much: and for my part, I think no man can disprooue it.

Dan. They that doe the will of God are the children and seruants of God. And they which fulfill the lustes of the deuill, and obey him, are his children & his seruantes, Ioh. 8. vers. 44. Act. 13. vers. 10. Are they not?

M. B. I graunt all this?

Dan. The deuilles are the rulers of the darknesse of this world. Ephes. 6. ver. 12.

M. B. The text is plaine.

Dan. The darknesse of this world, is not meant of the darknesse of the night, which is but the shadow of the earth, but it is the spiritual darknes, which consisteth in the ignorance of God, in infidelitie, and in sinne.

M. B. I am of your mind in this also.

Dan. And doe you not thinke then that the deuill hath his throne, his dominion and kingdom in the hearts of ignorant blind infidels?

M. B. I must neéds thinke he hath, the word of God doth force me thereunto: seéing he is the Prince of darkenesse.

Dan. And is there anie greater infidelitie and darknesse in anie, than in witches, coniurers, and such as haue familiaritie with deuils?

M. B. I tak it they be the depest ouerwhelmed in darknesse and infidelitie of all other.

Dan. Lay all these thinges together which you confesse, and see whether it doth not follow vpon the same, that the witch is the vassall of the deuill, and not he her seruant; he is Lord and commaundeth, and she is his drudge and obeyeth.

M. B. Yea, although he be Lord, yet he is content to serue her turne, and the witches confesse, they call them forth and send them: and that they hire them to hurt such in their bodies, and in their cattell, as they bee displeased withall.

Dan. I am sorie you are so farre awrie, it is pitie any man should be in such errour, especiallie a man that hath learning, and should teach others knowledge.

M. B. Nay, I may returne this vpon you, for if you will denie this, it is but a follie to reason any further: I will neuer be driuen from that which I knowe: There was one olde mother W. of great T. which had a spirite like a a Weasill: she was offended highlie with one H. M. home she went, and called forth her spirite, which lay in a pot of woll vnder her bed, she willed him to goe plague the man: he required what she would giue him, and he would kill H. M. She said she would giue him a cocke, which shee did, and he went, and the man fell sicke with a great paine in his bellie, languished and died: the witch was arraigned, condemned, and hanged, and did confesse all this.

Dan. I told you before that I do not deny these things, but you are deceiued about the doing: you marke not the cunning sleights of the deuill: Tel me, is not this the truth which S. Peter speaketh, that the deuil goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may deuoure. 1. Pet. 5.

M. B. What then?

Dan. What then? can you be so simple as to imagine that the deuill lieth in a pot of wooll, soft and warme, and stirreth not, but when he is hired and sent? The deuils conspire together in their worke, they bestirre them, and neuer take rest night nor day: they are neuer wearie, they be not a colde, they care not for lying soft: These be fooleries by which hee deceiueth the witches, and bewitcheth the mindes of many ignorant people: And whereas you say he is hired, it is but deceit: for, let me aske you two or threé questions or more if neéd be.

M. B. What be your questions?

Dan. You say the witch commeth home angrie, who hath kindled this wrath in her heart but the deuill? Who inflameth her mind with malice, to be reuenged, and to doe mischiefe but the deuill? doth not he rule in her heart? Tell me what you thinke of this?

M. B. I muste neédes confesse hee stirreth her vp to wrath and malice.

Dan. Then he lieth not at home in his pot of wool: nor he is not hyred to this: hitherto she is his drudge, and obeyeth him, and not he her, being led by his suggestion. Then tell me, is not the deuill like a red or fierie dragon, Reuel. 12. burning in malice against God, and with all bloodie and cruell hatred that may be against men? And is he not farre readier vnto all mischiefe, than anie man or woman?

M. B. The deuill is more fierce than any man or woman; none can deny this.

Dan. If none can deny this, and he be the worker of the wrath and malice in the heart of the witch; then what neédeth he to be hyred? he stirreth her vp, and if he would, he could turn her mind from sending him, and must he he hyred? doth he care for a cock or a chicken? Is he hungry or neédeth he somewhat to eat?

M. B. Nay, but it is thought he taketh those thinges to witnesse against the witch that she is his.

Dan. Let it bee, there were somewhat in that which you speake, yet he hath a farre deéper reach; for the trueth is, hee woulde, and doeth perswade the blind people, that he medleth litle, but when he is euen hyred and sent, and that then his medling is but in such matters: And hereupon all is on a broyle against old women, which can any wayes be suspected to be witches, as if they were the very plagues of the world, and as if all would be well, and safe from such harmes, if they were rooted out, and thus they fall a rooting out without all care, for it is thought that the witch which hath her spirits, is euen lyke a man which hath curst dogges, which he may set vpon other mens cattell, which yet in the nature of dogs, would neuer styrre but when they are bidden: and so the harmes do come from the man which oweth those dogs. They think that the country might be ryd of such spirits, if there were none to hoister them, or to set them a worke. They imagine that they and their cattell should then goe safe. Alas poore creatures, how they be deluded? how litle do they vnderstand the high prouidence of almighty God which is ouer all.

M. B. Doe you thinke then that witches ought not to be rooted out? or doe you thinke it were not much safety to the country from harmes, if it could be rid of them?

Dan. For the rooting out of witches, the Scripture is plaine. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to liue: but we are not yet come to that poynt. But whether they be to be rooted out that men may be safe from harmes, as the people in fury and blindnesse imagine, that is next.

M. B. Men feele the smart and the harmes which they doe, and it is no maruell, though they be earnest to haue them rooted out, and a good riddance it were if the whole land could be set freé from them.

Sam. Trulie M.B. I am of your mind, I wold they wer all hanged vp one against another: we should not (I hope) stand in such fear of their spirits. But I interrupt you too.

The wife. They that would not haue them hanged or burnt, I would they might euen witch them vnto hell. If I had but one fagot in the world, I would carry it a myle vpon my shoulders to burne a witch.

Dan. Well good woman, spare your fagot a while, and ease your shoulders, and let vs reason the matter a little further? I pray you let me aske you this question, doth the witch or the deuill the harme vnto men and cattell?

M. B. Why, the deuill doth it at their sending, though I confesse it must neéds be as you said, that the deuil worketh al in the mind of the witch, & mooueth her to send him.

Dan. The deuill hath a kingdome, but it is in darkenesse and corruption of sinne. He hath no right nor power ouer Gods creatures, no not so much as to kill one flye, or to take one eare of corne out of anie mans barne, vnlesse power be giuen him. You know when Christ cast the deuils out of the man possessed, they aske leaue for to goe into the heard of swine. Then tell me, who giueth the deuill this power then, when the witch sendeth him, to kill or to lame man or beast? doth the witch giue it him? Do you think he had power to doe harme, but no mind till she mooued him? Or doe you take it that her sending giueth him power, which he had not?

M. B. It is a question indeed worth the asking: For doubtlesse, the deuill hath not power vntill it be giuen him, to touch any creature, to hurt, or to destroy the body, but onely to tempt and to lead into sin: I am also sure that the witch cannot giue him power, but onlie God aboue.

Dan. Lay these two together then, that the deuill only hurteth, and that none can giue him power, neither man nor woman, but only God, and tell me whether the people be not wonderfully carried awry in a rage. For, when as they should consider, that the deuill is the Lordes executioner: And then finding that he hath any power giuen him to molest, to hurt and vexe them in theyr bodies or goods, to know certainly it commeth from the Lord, and then gather from thence (as the trueth is) that the Lord is displeased with them for their offences. And so seeke vnto him, humbly crauing pardon and deliuerance from this enemy, seéking to be armed with the mighty power of faith, to cast him foorth, and to resist him, as the Lord willeth, 1. Pet. 5 Here is no such matter, no looking so high among the people, but running deéper into errour, and into sinne, as if the witches did it, and that it commeth from their anger and not from their owne sinnes and infidelity, here is no repentance, no humbling themselues by fasting and prayer, but running for helpe vnto deuilles, vsing meanes which those deuils by the cunning men & women appoint, scratching and clawing, thirsting often after guiltles blood as raging against those whomethey imagine to be witches, which many times are not, because they imagine, that if there were no witches, ther should be no such plagues. As if they had no foule sinnes nor vnbeleéfe, or that there remayned not a iust reuenging God to punish, or as if he had not the deuils still the executioners of his wrath.

M. B. Truly your wordes doe make me affrayd: for I am euen guiltie of th[…]se thinges my selfe, if they be so grieuous, as you set them out: and by Gods grace I wil consider better of the matter: for I haue counselled manie to seék vnto those cunning folkes, and to vse such helpes as they prescribe, and you say, it is to seéke help at deuils. To seé that point we shal come anon: now I wold be resolued about somewhat in your last speach; as namely, doe you cleare the witches, because God, and not they, giueth the deuil power, and doe you thinke that the deuils should kill men and their cattell, if they were not sent by witches? Should the harmes still follow, if there were no witches?

Dan. That I say God alone, and not the witches, giueth power vnto the deuils to plague and torment: it is so euident as that I suppose a man shall hardlie meete with anie man so grosse but will confesse it. But this doeth not cleare the witches at all; for their sinne is in dealing with deuils, and that they imagine that their Spirits do those harmes, requested and hyred by them: when as indeéde the deuill, where he hath power giuen him to hurt, or where he knoweth death or grieuous diseases will follow either in man or beast, setteth the witch in a rage, and moueth her to send him. Concerning your other question, I say, we shall finde by the Scriptures, that if there were no witches at all, yet men should be plagued by the deuils in their bodies and goods. For touching the godly, the Lord doth vse Satan to afflict them in their bodies and in their goodes, for to trie their faith and patience: as the example of holie Iob doeth testifie in ample maner. It were vile follie and brutish to affirme, that witches did set on the deuils to kill his children, and to plague his bodie, And I hold it no smal follie, for anie man to think that the Lord doeth not nowe scourge his children, at the least some of them, for their good, by the deuill. There is no doubt, but the deuil hauing power giuen him to afflict, vseth all the craft hee can, and will seék to be sent by the witch, and so hee will make it knowne, because it may seéme to bee not from God, but from the anger of a poore woman. And now touching the wicked, which prouoke God by their wicked sinnes and vnbeleefe, may we not read in the scriptures that an euill spirite was sent of God vnto king Saul, which did haunt and vexe him? Was this spirit sent by a witch? Or the deuils in the Gospell, which entred into the hearde of swine and drowned them? Did the Lord giue them power, and send them, and shall we be so sottish as to thinke, that hee sendeth not the deuill now against vngodly men, to plague and to destroy them? As I said before, here is the deepe craft of Satan, that he will couet to bee sent by witches, whereas indeed God hath sent him, seéing none can sende him but God. Againe, wee must consider that there bee naturall causes in the bodies of men and beastes of grieuous tormentes and diseases, yea euen causes of death. Nowe, they cannot be so secrete, but the deuill knoweth them, and euen when they are like to take effect. Then doth he plie it with the witch, setteth her in a furie, she sendeth him, euen vpon this sending the man or the beast suddainlie and strangely are tormented, fall lame, or die. Then the witch is suspected, examined, and confesseth that she killed such a man, or such a mans cattell, or made them lame. Here the people are set in a wonderfull maze and astonishment, as if witches could plague men in their wrath, by sending their spirits, because they confesse they did it, whē their spirits doe lie and had no power, but the tormentes came by naturall causes. And to driue the people into a deéper madnes in this, & to mak them beleéue, that strange and suddaine torments and languishing diseases come by witches, he hath his other sort of witches, the cunning men and women, which tell euen vpon his worde, (which you know is to be trusted) that they be bewitched, that they bee haunted with fayries, and that ther be thus many witches therabout, in euerie town some.

M. B. That is most true no doubt, which you speake, I doe not for my part knowe how to gainsay any one point thereof. Only I wonder at the craftinesse of the deuils in these things, that where they haue power graunted vnto them to hurt, they will be sent by the witches, as if they did it hired by them, and that you say where harmes doe follow men vpon naturall causes, that they can make shew as though they did them. But are you of this mind, that there should be as manie or all those harmes done by deuilles, if there were no witches, as there be now? Although I must needs confesse, that the witches can giue the deuil no power, nor he can take none by their sending: yet may it not bee that God giueth them power oftener because of those witches dealing with them, than if there were no witches at all?