A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 3 of 8

Dan. The craftinesse of deuils is such, as without the light of Gods worde, the wisest men vnder heauen muste neédes be deceiued thereby. We seé there be some men so deép in subtilties and can carie matters so close, that men can not discerne them: how much more the deuilles, which are exceédingly subtill, & craftie aboue the subtillest men? the question which you aske is (in my iudgment) somwhat hard: But this is vndoubted, that if the Lord God do giue vnto the deuils oftener power to hurt because of the witches, I meane because the deuils doe deale by such instruments, it is in his heauie iudgment against the wickednes of the people, which despise the true and heauenlie light of his word. As S. Paule (prophecying of the comming of the great Antichrist) sheweth, that because men did not receiue the loue of the trueth, God gaue the deuill power by Antichrist and his ministers, to seduce by lying signes and wonders. Indeéd, I will not say that for the witch the deuill hath power giuen him, but for the wickednesse of the people, which deserue that by witches the deuill shoulde haue power to seduce them further. Here yet we muste take heéde of the common errour which a multitude are caried so hedlong withall, that they can by no means seé, that God is prouoked by their sinnes to giue the deuill such instruments to work withall, but rage against the witch, euen as if she could do all.

M. B. Surelie, I should bee a wretch to deny, that God giueth the Deuilles power to plague and to seduce because of mens wickednes; but yet I would knowe whether a godly faythfull man or woman may not bee bewitched? Weé seé the deuill had power giuen him ouer Iob?

Dan. This example of Iob is not fit to prooue that a godly man may be bewitched, seéing the deuill is not sayde to deale by witches against him, but it doeth prooue, that not only the godlie, but euen the most godly (as holy Iob, who had none like him vpon earth) may for their triall be giuen into the handes of Satan to be afflicted and tempted. And as I said, where Satan hath power granted him of God, to strike with bodily plagues any of the godly, for the triall of their fayth and patience, he will couet, if he can bring it about, to bee sent by some witch, and to haue it knowne that he was sent. But the faithfull are to turne theyr eies from the witch, and to deale with God, for from him the matter commeth. When they be tried; the Lord in his good time will deliuer them depending vpon him, to their great praise and glory, euen as valiant souldiers. It is therefore, of no great force, whether Satan come from the witch against the godlie, or whether he haue no witch to deale by: ouercome thou the deuill, and thou ouercommest all. Indeéd among the more ignorant sort he preuayleth much, when he toucheth those which imbrace the liuely word as sent from a witch. For many nowe doe euen quake and tremble, and their faith doth stagger. Hath heé power (thinke they) ouer such as be cunning in the scriptures, then what are they the better for their profession? the witch is on their bones as well as vpon others. By this it might seéme, and so they take it, that other helpes and remedies are to be sought than by the scriptures. And so they run and seéke help where they ought not.

M. B. Then I pray you, though I be already perswaded it is naught to seéke to these cunning men for help against witches, yet let vs conferre a little of that. There be diuers things which haue persuaded me to thinke marueilous well of them, and euen as of such as God hath giuen wisedome and skill vnto, euen for to doe much good. For we seé many receiue help by them, and are deliuered from the plagues which come by deuils. And first, I wold know how they can bee so earnest against witches, if they deale with the deuill, and so be indeéd witches themselues? how can they haue any mind in charity to doe good, to take pitie vpon such as be in misery? Or how will Satan driue forth Satan? For they no doubt, driue out deuilles out of some.

Dan. I would come to aunswere your questions touching the seéking help at the hands of cunning men or women, but tell me firste, are you resolued touching the sending of the spirits, and touching the harms that are done? Me think you slip too suddainly from these points?

M. B. I cannot tell whether I vnderstand your meaning in euery thing, but sure, I haue bene in error greatly I must neéds confesse. And if you please, we may stande somewhat longer in these questions.

Sam. Indeéd it is my desire that you woulde speake a litle playner of these poyntes: for I haue marked well all your talke, and cannot well conceiue of the last things you dealt in. With your leaue M. B. I would aske two or threé questions of my friend. Here was but seuen miles hence at W. H. one M. the man was of good wealth, and well accounted of among his neighbours. He pined away with sicknes halfe a yeare, and at last died. After hee was dead, his wife suspected ill dealing: she went to a cunning man, I know not where, and desired to know whereof her husband died. He told her that her husband died of witcherie: he asked her if she did not suspect any therabout. She sayd there was one woman which she did not like, one mother W. her husband and she fell out, and he fell sick within two dayes after, and neuer recouered again. He shewed her the woman as plaine in a glasse, as we seé one another, and in the very apparell she went in at that hower, for sheé ware an old red cappe with corners, such as women were wont to weare; and in that she appeared in the glasse: Hee taught her how she might bring her to confesse. Well, she followed his counsell, went home, caused her to be apprehended and caried before a Iustice of peace. He examined her so wisely, that in the end she confessed shee killed the man. She was sent to prison, she was arraigned, condemned, and executed: And vpon the ladder shee seémed very penetent, desiring all the world to forgiue her. She said she had a spirit in the likenes of a yellow dun catte. This catte came vnto her, as she said, as she sat by her fire, when she was fallen out with a neighbour of hers, and wished that the vengeance of God might light vpon him and his. The catte bad her not be affraid, she wold do her no harme: She had serued a dame fiue yeares in Kent, that was now dead, and if she would, she would be her seruant. And wheras, said the Cat, such a man hath misused theé, if thou wilt I will plague him in his cattell She sent the Cat, she killed threé hogs and one Cow. The man suspecting, burnt a pig aliue, and as she said, her cat wold neuer go thither any more. Afterward she fel out with that M. she sent her Cat, who told her, that she had giuen him that, which hee should neuer recouer: and indeéd the man died. Now doe you not thinke the woman spake the trueth in all this? Would the woman accuse her selfe falsely at her death? Did not the Cat become her seruant? Did not she send her? Did shee not plague and kill both man and beaste? What shoulde a man thinke of this?

Dan. You propounde a particular example, and let vs examine euery thing in it touching the witch, for the womans fact that went to the wise man, wee are not yet come to that point. You say the Cat came to her when she was in a great rage with one of her neighbours, and did curse, wishing the vengeance of God to fall vpon him and his.

Sam. She said so indeéde, I heard her with mine own ears, for I was at the execution.

Dan. Then tel me who set her in such a deuilish rage, so to curse & banne, as to wish that the vengeance of God might light vpon him and his? did not the Cat?

Sam. Trulie I thinke the Deuil wrought that in her.

Dan. Uerie well, then you seé the Cat is the beginner of this play.

Sam. Cald you it a play? It was no play to some.

Dan. Indeed the witch at last had better haue wrought hard, than bene at her play. But I meane Satan did play the Iugler: For, doth he not offer his seruice? Doth he not moue her to send him to plague the man? Tell me, is she so forward to send, as he is to be sent? Or doe you not take it, that he ruleth in her heart, and euen wholly directeth it to this matter?

Sam. I am fully perswaded he ruleth her heart.

Dan. Then was shee his drudge, and not he her seruant, he needeth not to be hired nor intreated, for if her hart were to send him any where, vnto such as he knoweth hee cannot hurt, nor seeth how to make any shewe that he hurteth them, he can quickly turne her from that. Wel, the cat goeth and killeth the man, certain hogs and a Cow: howe could she tell that the Cat did it?

Sam. How could she tell? why he told her man, and she saw and heard that he lost his cattell.

Dan. The Cat would lie, would she not? for they say such cattes are lyers.

Sam. I doe not trust the Cats wordes, but because the thing fell out so.

Dan. Because the hogges and the Cow died, are you sure the Cat did kil them, might they not die of some naturall causes as you seé both men and beasts are well, and die suddainlie?

Sam. That were strange, if they should die of naturall causes, and fall out so fit at the time after he was sent?

Dan. It is not straunge at all, as marke what I tell you and you shall easily seé. There bee naturall causes of tortures and griefe, of lamenes, and of death in the bodies of men and beastes, which lie so hid and secrete, that the learneddest Physitians can not espie them, but the deuill seéth them, and can coniecture very neere the time, when they will take effect. Then doeth hee ply it, to bring the matter about that it may seéme he did it. If hee haue any witch to deale by, he stirreth vp some occasion to set her in a rage with that partie: and then he will be sent, and telleth her he doeth it. If he haue no witch to deale by, yet hee will set debate betweéne the partie and some other, whom he may bring into suspition, as his greatest desire is to haue innocent bloud shed.

Sam. Here is a matter brought about indeéd, how could the Cat doe all this?

Dan. I told you before, that the deuilles worke together, and can speédilie and most craftilie compasse thinges, which are farre beyond the reach of mans capacitie. But sometime the deuill hath power giuen him to plague and doth the harme. Admit he had power giuen him, and did kill the cattell of this man: let vs come nowe to that, who think you, gaue him the power for to strike and kill? Did the witch giue him the power, or the Lord God?

Sam. Nay surely, the witch cannot giue him power.

Dan. Did he receiue power after she sent him?

Sam. That cannot I tell.

Dan. Thē mark a litle: he hath power giuē him to plague this man in his goods: he wil do it, but he will doe it craftily. The Lord gaue him power ouer the goods of holie Iob: he worketh by instruments, for he stirreth vp the Sabeis, and they take away his Oxen, and his Asses: he raiseth vp also the Chaldeis, and they cary away his Camels, Iob. 1. Euen so, hauing power to strike, he wil be sent by a witch, he could doo it without her, but he gayneth much that way, as we shall seé when wee come to speake of the remedyes which men seeke.

Sam. I wonder then that the man neuer had more hurt after he had burnt his pig aliue?

Dan. O man, the Deuill can abide no roast meate, nor no fire, he is affraide, if they fall a roasting, that they will roast him. If they run at him with a spit red hot, they gaster him so sore, that his dame shal go her self, if she will he will come no more there. But of these thinges we are to speake afterward in their place.

Sam. You make the deuill wonderfull subtill.

Dan. He is so subtill and full of all craft and sleight, that no earthly creature can escape from being seduced by him, without the light of Gods heauenly word. But let vs come now to the other man, whom the witch confessed shee killed by her Cat.

Sam. Yea, that me thinketh is more than the other, the woman was told by the cunning man that her husband was killed by witcherie. The witch confessed so much at her death. The Cat told the witch, that she killed him.

Dan. Here be a companie of credible persons to be beleeued: the cunning man saith the man was bewitched to death. Who told him that?

Sam. His spirite that maketh the witch appeare in the glasse.

Dan. That same Spirite, what doe you take him to be, an Angell, or a Deuill?

Sam. Some of the cunning men say, they haue Moses or Elias, or the Spirite of some holy man.

Dan. The Deuill can turne himselfe into the likenes of an Angell of light. For they that doe thinke the cunning men and women deale with any other Spirite than Satan, haue no vnderstanding. Satan saith, the man was witched to death.

Sam. Satan saith so, he is not to bee beleéued, but the witchconfesseth it was so.

Dan. Who told the witch?

Sam. Her Cat that she sent.

Dan. What is the Cat, a deuill? then remember the prouerbe, aske his fellow if he be a theéfe. All the matter resteth vpon the testimony of deuils, and they not put to their oath. Wee will not ground vpon mans testimonie without an oath, and must we beleeue the bare worde of deuils?

Sam. Do you thinke then that the man was not killed by witcherie?

Dan. It may be the Lord had giuen Satan power to plague the man in his bodie, and then he vnder a colour would be sent by a witch. But it is most like that his bodie did languish and pine of naturall causes, which the deuill did know, and so would be sent, and seéme to do all, when as indeéd he had no power to touch him. For, although the Lord giue the deuill power, to strike some in their bodies for their haynous sinnes, yet the most which the witches thinke their spirits doe kill at their request, doe die of naturall diseases.

Sam. Then it seémeth the witches are deceiued, and mocked, when he maketh them beleéue he doeth kill and plague when hee doeth not. And againe in this, where he hath power giuen him of God, to strike man or beast, hee could doe it, and would without the witch, and so vseth the witch for a collour to draw on worse matters.

Dan. I am glad you take my meaning so right: for, thinke deéply of the matters, and you shall seé it must neéds be so.

Sam. I interrupted M. B. I pray you goe forward now to the rest.

Dan. Our matter which we come vnto nowe, is the helpe and remedie that is sought for against witches at the hands of cunning men. And now if it please you to propound your questions, I will answere to them the best I can.

M. B. Nay truly, I seé already all is naught, but yet I will obiect those things which haue caried me awrie. I take it a man is to seék remedy against euils, & I thought it was euen a gift that God gaue vnto those whom we cal cunning men, that they did very much good by. When a thing is lost, when a thing is stollen, many goe to them, and they help them to it. I did know where the Communion cup was stollen: the Churchwardens rode to a wise man, he gaue them direction what night, and where they should stand, and the party that had stollen it should come thither, and confesse he had it: and certainly they had it againe. I did know one that had a child of fiue yeares old, a gyrle, it was taken piteouslie: the father was in great heauinesse, and knew not what to doe: some gaue him counsell to goe to a woman which dwelt ten miles from him, and to carie some of the clothes which the child lay in: he did so, the woman told him that his child was bewitched, and if hee did not seéke remedie in time, the childe would be lost: Shee bad him take some olde clothes, and let the child lie in them all night, and then take and burne them: and he should see by the burning, for if they did burne black, that shewed the child was bewitched, and she said further that doubtlesse the witch would come thither: he followed her aduice, and sure as we be here, there came an old woman in, which he suspected, euen while they were burning, and made an errand: the man made no more adoe, but euen laid his clowches vpon her and clawed her vntill the blood ranne down her cheeks, and the child was well within two dayes after. I could tell you of a stranger thing, but I haue it but by report, but yet indeed by very credible report. There was a butcher by his trade that had a boy to his sonne, his name was Iohn, grieuous sores did breake forth vpon him: they laid salues, and none woulde cleaue for to draw or to ease them. The father making his moane to a friend of his, he told him whether he should goe to a verie skilfull man. he did goe, and being demanded whom he suspected, she was shewed him in a glasse, an old woman that dwelt not farre from him in an house alone: he told the cunning man, that the woman had shut vp her dore, & was gone from home out of the shyre, and so he could not tell how to come by her. he told him a way how he should fetch her home. Cut off the hair (said he) of the boyes head, and put it in a cloath and burne it, and I warrant you she wil come home with al the speéd she can. Burne it abroade, burne it not in a chimney, for if you doe, it will make you all affraide. The man went home and did this. The woman came home with all speéde, came to his house, came to the boy, and saide, Iohn, scratch me, hee scratched her vntil the blood followed, and whereas before nothing would draw his soares, they healed of themselues. What should a man thinke of such things?

Dan. You tell of some, which haue receiued help from the hands of cunning men: And no doubt there may infinit examples be brought. Some haue lost, some haue thinges stollen from them, some are vexed in their bodies: They come by the things againe which were lost or stollen, they are taught to doe certain things, and are eased from their griefs. But this we must first knowe, they receiue their helpe, if it deserue the name to be called help, from the deuill. And do you thinke a man may lawfullie seek helpe at the hands of the deuill?

M. B. Some are perswaded that they doe not seéke helpe at the hand of deuils, when they goe to the wise men: but that it is a gift which God hath giuen them, euen to do good withall.

Dan. I doe verilie thinke that manie of the people are so perswaded: but what reason is there for it? Doeth God by his Spirit tell where the thing is which is lost, or stollen? Is it an Angell from heauen, or the soule of some man that is dead, which appeareth in the Chrystall, or in the glasse, and sheweth the image of the partie which hath stollen, or that is a witch?

M. B. I had rather heare what you thinke touching these things, than shew what I haue thought.

Dan. The deuils did make the heathen people beleéue that they were goddes, and so procured that they shoulde worship them with diuine worship. Through their craftines they had many wayes to establish this: they conueied themselues into images, and out of them gaue answeres, when they wer demanded, herein they vsed great craft. for whereas they could not tell what should fall out, they framed the oracle in such sort as it was doubtfull, and might be taken both waies: and so looke which part it fell out on, that seemed and was taken to be the meaning of the gods. If they did know how things would fal out indeéd, as they did know sundry things touching the kingdomes and monarchies of the world, by the writings of the Prophetes, and diuers things by coniectures, as the deuill could tell Saul he should be slaine, because he saw God had cast him off, and the hearts of the Israelits fainted, and the Philistims were full of courage, those they would tell plainelie. Also they did conuey themselues into the bodies of men and women, and vtter thinges which seémed very diuine, such (as I am perswaded) were the Prophetisses the Sibylles among the heathen. Such was the maide at Philippos, which is mentioned in the Actes of the Apostles, which brought great gain vnto her maisters by deuining, out of whom Paule cast the deuill. This maide could tell of things lost, of things stollen, and such like, and great resort there was vnto her, as men had neede, or desired to see the strangenesse of the matter.

M. B. Let me interrupt you a litle. The deuill can not be in all places at once: how could he then, remaining in the maide, tell what was done in places farre off? howe can the deuill tel where the thing lost or stollen is, which is not only farre off, but hidden? how can he shewe the image of the thiefe or witch? Can he sit and behold all thinges a farre off, and in secrete?

Dan. We may not ascribe vnto Deuils that they can be in all places at once, or sit in one place and beholde all things done a farre off. But they ioyne together in this speciall worke, to set vp their kingdome, and to drawe the people after them, to seéke helpe at their handes, and so to worship them. Some of them be in one place, and some in another, and from all places doe stir vp the faithlesse people to run for helpe to those cunning men, and then they make the relation, for they goe thither also, they know the thiefe whome they mooued to the theft, and can make resemblance of his face and apparell: they can tell where things be that are hid, hauing had a finger in the matter. And thus one spirite, as it doeth seéme, telleth things spoken and done farre off, but it is otherwise, there be manie that doe it, which resort from all the places where the things are done.