A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 8 of 8

Dan. Nay what thinke you? Are you sure she was a witch? May it not be she was innocent, and you vpon your oathes shed innocent bloud?

Sam. If she were innocent what could we do lesse? we went according to the euidence of such as were sworne, they swore that they in their conscience tooke her to bee a witch, and that she did those thinges.

Dan. If other take their oath that in their conscience they thinke so, is that sufficient to warrant men vpon mine oath to say it is so?

Sam. Nay, but you sée what matters they brought, which perswaded them to thinke so.

Dan. Might not both you and they be deceiued in your thinking, or may you vpon matters which may induce you to thinke so, present vppon your oath that you knowe it is so?

Sam. If witnesses come in and sweare falsely, the Iurie procéeding according, their testimonie is cleare from blame, for they goe but by testimonie of men sworne.

Dan. If witnesses doe sweare directly that in their knowledge a matter was so or so, and sweare falsely, the Iurie is cleare which procéedeth according to their euidence: vnlesse the Iurie do perceiue that their oath can not be true. But what is that to make the testimonie sufficient where men doe but thinke, and can shewe no necessarie reason to ground their thought vpon? As let vs sée in all these which one could prooue that she must néedes be a witch. One saith her husband tooke it vpon his death that she killed him, because he would not lend her fiue shillings: doth this prooue she bewitched him? Can the deuill kill a man at his pleasure, to gratifie the witch? Is it not rather to be iudged he dyed of some pining sicknesse growing from an euill constitution of body, which the deuill did know, and would set him at some variance with one old woman or other, that so it might bréede suspition of witchcraft.

Sam. You sée there were some things which could not be done but by the deuill.

Dan. In déede the great face which the man thought he saw, was the illusion of the deuill. But is this a good proofe, the deuill appeareth to a man after he hath displeased a woman, therefore she sent him? Doth not Satan haunt all men continually, and would if he could get leaue from God, terrifie them with such illusions, When men are affraide, and haue strong imaginations? What reason did the woman shew which tooke it vpon her conscience that the olde woman killed her child, to prooue that it was so? If shée thought so in her conscience, and tenne thousand more with her vpon bare imagination, was that a warrant for you to sweare solemnely that it was so? As for the testimony of the cunning woman that he was bewitched which had the paine in his backe, vpon the deniall of pot-hearbes, it was the testimony but of the deuill, as I shewed before. And what is common fame grounded vpon imaginations?

Sam. Then you thinke we did amisse do you?

Dan. I would not vpon mine oath doe such a thing for to gaine a kingdome.

Sam. It may be she was a witch, although she tooke it vpon her death that she was not.

Dan. It is rather to be thought she was not a witch: for what should make her deny it vpon her death? The deuill had accused her to be a witch, for direct testimonie against her but his.

Sam. You say it was the deuill that told by the cunning woman that she was a witch.

Dan. And do you thinke it was any other but Satan?

Sam. I did not at that time thinke it was the deuill: but now I sée it could be none other.

Dan. Then be wiser hereafter, and sorie for that which you haue done.

Sam. In déede I haue cause to be gréeued if shee were not a witch.

Dan. If she were a witch your warrant was small: but she being no witch, you haue taken away both her life, and couered her with infamie.

Sam. I was of an other Iurie since, and there was a woman indicted for a witch, but not for killing any man or child. There came in fiue or sixe against her: the first was an old woman, and she sayd she had displeased her, as shee thought, and within two or thrée nights after as she sate by her fire, there was a thing like a toad, or like some little crabbe fish which did créepe vpon the earth, she tooke a beasome & swept it away, and suddainly her bodie was griped. An other fell out with her as she sayd, and her hennes began to die vp, vntil she burnt one henne aliue. A third man came in, and he sayd she was once angry with him, he had a dun cow which was tyed vp in a house, for it was in winter, he feared that some euill would follow, and for his life he could not come in where she was, but he must néedes take vp her tayle and kisse vnder it. Two or thrée other came in & sayd she was by common fame accounted a Witch. We found her giltie, and she was condemned to prison, and to the pillorie, but stoode stiffe in it that she was no witch.

Dan. And are you sure she was one?

Sam. I thinke verily shee was one, although there be many of her neighbors which thinke she is none: for how could those thinges followe so vpon her anger? It séemeth they were all done by the deuill.

Dan. He is cunning that can tell that: let it be that it was the deuil which appeared to the old woman like a toad, or like a crabbe fish, and that he did gripe her bodie: doth it follow therefore of necessitie that the other woman sent him? He can not turne him selfe into any likenesse vnlesse God giue him leaue, as he doth in iustice permit that so he may delude ignorāt persons, No witch can giue him power to appeare vnto any in a visible shape. He had this graunted him from God, and Satan by and by will set anger, and then appeare, that it might séeme it grew from that.

Sam. Wee sée he appeareth vnto witches, and coniurers.

Dan. Yea but we may not thinke he can at his pleasure take a likenes for to appeare in. That he doth appeare vnto witches and coniurers, it is graunted in Gods wrath to the ende he may strongly delude such wicked people as will not heare and obey the voyce of the Lord God. For the deuils are chained vp by Gods most mightie power & prouidence, and in all thinges so farre as he letteth foorth their chaine, so farre they procéede, one inch further they can not procéede. Where men loue darkenes more then light, hée hath leaue giuen him to do many thinges. Some he terrifieth with vgley shapes, some he intiseth with faire shewes, others he playeth withall in liknes of a Weasell, or Mouse, or some such small vermine.

Sam. I thought Satan could appeare in what likenesse he would, and to whom he would, if the witch sent him.

Dan. Therein you were much deceiued: for the sending by the witch can giue him no power, and if he had power, he would no doubt in all places appeare vnto many as farre and in such sort, as should best serue his turne. Therefore if he appeare vnto any man, let him thinke God hath giuen him leaue to goe thus farre with me, and let him call for faith to resist him, and for true wisedome that he may not be deceiued nor deluded by him.

Sam. But doth he not appeare sometimes when the witches send him?

Dan. Where he findeth it is graunted vnto him for to appeare, he moueth witches to sende him if he haue any to deale by: but if there be none, yet will he appeare, & deale so farre as he hath power giuen him.

Sam. But what say you to the womans hennes?

Dan. What should one say to them when they be dead.

Sam. I meane doe you not thinke they were bewitched?

Dan. Christ saith, a Sparrow can not fall without the will of your heauenly Father: and is not a henne as good as a Sparrow?

Sam. Nay I am fully perswaded by that which you haue sayd, that the deuill can not touch any thing to kill or to hurt it, but vpon speciall leaue from God. They can giue him no power, she thinketh she setteth him on, and it is he that setteth her on worke. Let these things be no more called into question: but was it not euident that the deuill killed those hennes? because after the burning of one henne, the woman had no mo that dyed. If Satan did it not, how could they cease dying for that? You sayd that he where hee hath power to hurt in such bodely harmes, is willing to cease, that such wickednesse may be practised. And then if this hurt were done by the deuill, is it not to bee thought that the woman was a witch, séeing it followed after shee was angry? Let it be that Satan hauing power to do that he did, would be sent by the witch for a colour, and to make it euident did set anger betwéen her and that other woman, to make men thinke that he would not deale, but intreated by her being angry. And so we could doe no lesse but finde her a witch.

Dan. These be weake foundations to set such a weightie building vpon. For first it is not certaine that the deuill killed those hennes. Might be they had some infection which he did knowe would kill them, and he craftily bringeth the matter about, maketh two women fall out (which is the easiest matter of an hundreth) euen vpon the dying of the hennes, that so it might séeme they were bewitched. But you say then, how could it be that vpon the burning of an henne, there dyed no more, if the deuill did not kill them? Nay how can you tell but that there should no more haue died, although the liue henne had not béene burned? What if he sawe there should no more die, and thereupon mooued the heart of that woman to vse that witchcraft in burning a henne, that it might séeme that was a present remedie to driue away deuils? Or put case he had the power to kill the womans hennes, eyther he is a weake killer, or else he goeth to his worke but lazely. He could kill a great heard of swine quickly when Christ gaue him leaue: could he not if the woman had fiue thousand hennes, haue killed them all at once? Why did the foole then but nibble killing now one and then one, and so was scared away before he had killed all? If he had power before the henne was burnt for to kill why did he not then when they went about to burne an hen kill the rest? It may be he did not knowe what they went about, he was layd soft in his potte of wooll: and comming to kill an other henne, he was mette withall, he smelt the coastmeat, and was scared.

Sam. Then you thinke he did not kill those hennes.

Dan. What certainetie had you that he did kill them? You found it vpon your oath that he killed them, and that such a woman sent him and set him a worke, and yet it is an hundreth to one hee neuer had power for to touch them.

Sam. But what can you say to the other? The man which could not chuse but kisse vnder his cowes tayle?

Dan. I say he was farre in loue with his cow. Let such men learne to know God, & to expell fantasies out of their mindes that the deuill may not haue such power ouer thē, for he worketh in the fantasies of mans mind, and the more strongly where they feare him, as it appeareth this man did. Satan did worke in this mans minde many foolish imaginations, and to make him beleéue he was bewitched he maketh him fall out with one that may be suspected. And thus you Iurie men take your oath & condemne many innocent persons, because you beleéue the deuill, & imagine that witches do that which they can not do.

M. B. I haue heard of many that haue beéne condemned for witches which haue taken it vpon their death that they were innocent. And sundry of thē haue had farre weaker proofes brought against them then these that haue bin mentioned.

Dan. Yea that is it which I say, men do so little consider the high soueraignety and prouidence of God ouer all things: they ascribe so much to the power of the deuill and and to the anger of witches, and are in such feare of them, that the least shew that can be made by the sleights of Satan deceiueth them. The only way for men that will eschew the suares & subtilties of the deuil and all harmes by him, is this, euen to heare the voyce of God, to be taught of him by his liuely word which is full of pure light to discouer & expell the darke mistes of Satan in which he leadeth men out of the way. and to be armed with faith to resist him, as the holy Apostle S. Peter willeth, so such as doe forsake this way are seduced into grosse errors & into many abominable sinnes, which carrie men to destruction. I must now bidde you farewell.

M. B. I could be content to heare more in these matters, I seé how fondly I haue erred. But seéing you must be gone, I hope we shall meéte here againe at some other time, God keépe you.

Sam. I am bound to giue you great thankes. And I pray you when occasion serueth, that you come this way, let vs seé you at my house.

M. B. I thought there had not beéne such subtill practises of the deuil, nor so great sinnes as he leadeth mē into.

Sam. It is strange to seé how many thousands are caried awry and deceiued, yea many that are very wise men.

M. B. The deuill is too craftie for the wisest, vnlesse they haue the light of Gods word.

The wife of Sam. Husband yonder commeth the good wife R.

Sam. I would she had come sooner.

The good wife R. Ho, who is within, by your leaue.

The wife of Sam. I would you had come a litle sooner, here was one euen now that sayd you are a witch.

The good wife R. Was there one sayd I am a witch? you do but iest.

The wife of Sam. Nay I promise you he was in good earnest.

The good wife R. I a Witch? I defie him that sayth it, though he be a Lord. I would all the witches in the land were hanged, and their spirits by them.

M. B. Would not you be glad if their spirites were hanged vp with them to haue a gowne furred with some of their skinnes.

The good wife R. Out vpon them, there were furre.

Sam. Wife why diddest thou say that he sayd the good wife R. is a witch? he did not say so.

The wife of Sam. Husband I did marke his wordes well ynough, he sayd she is a witch.

Sam. He doth not know her, and how could he say she is a witch?

The wife of Sam. What though he did not know her? did he not say she played the witch that hette the spitte red hotte, and thrust it into her creame, when the butter would not come?

Sam. Indeéde wife, thou sayest true, he said that was a thing taught by the deuill, as also the burning of an henne or of an hogge aliue, and all such like deuises.

The good wife R. Is that witchcraft? Some scripture man hath tolde you so. Did the deuill teach it? Nay the good woman at R. H. taught it my husband: she doeth more good in one yeare than all these scripture men will doe so long as they liue.

M. B. Who doe you thinke taught it the cunning woman at R.H.

The good wife R. It is a gift which God hath giuen her, I thinke the holie spirite of God doth teach her.

M. B. You doe not thinke then that the deuill doeth teach her?

The good wife R. How should I thinke that the Deuill doeth teach her? Did you euer heare that the deuill did teach any good thing?

M. B. Doe you know that was a good thing?

The good wife R. Was it not a good thing to driue the euill spirit out of my creame?

M. B. Do you thinke the deuill was affraid of your spit?

The good wife R. I knowe he was driuen away, and we haue bene rid of him euer since.

M. B. Can a spit hurt him?

The good wife R. It doth hurt him, or it hurteth the witch: One of them I am sure: for he commeth no more. Either she cā get him come no more, because it hurteth him: or els she will let him come no more, because it hurteth her.

M. B. It is certaine that spirites cannot be hurt but with spirituall weapons: therefore your spit cannot fraie nor hurt the deuill. And how can it hurt the witch, you did not thinke she was in your creame, did you?

The good wife R. Some thinke she is there, & therefore, when they thrust in the spitte they say, If thou beest here haue at thine eie.

M. B. If she were in your creame, your butter was not very cleanly.

The good wife R. You are merrily disposed M. B. I know you are of my minde, though you put these questions to me. For I am sure none hath counselled more to go to the cunning folke than you.

M. B. I was of your minde, but I am not nowe, for I seé how foolish I was. I am sorie that euer I offended so grieuously as to counsaill any for to seéke vnto deuils.

The good wife R. Why, M. B. who hath schooled you to day? I am sure you were of another mind no longer agone than yesterday.

The wife of Sam. Truely goodwife R. I thinke my husband is turned also: here hath bene one reasoning with them threé or foure howers.

The good wife R. Is your husband turned to? I wold you might loose all your hens one after an other, and then I would she would set her spirite vpon your duckes and your geése, and leaue you not one aliue. Will you come to defend witches?

M. B. We do not defend witches.

The good wife R. Yes, yes, there be too many that take their part, I would they might witch some of thē euen into hell, to teach others to defend them. And you M.B. I wold your nagge might hault a little one of these dayes: seé whether you would not be glad to seéke helpe.

M. B. I would seéke helpe, I would carry him to the smith to search if he were not pricked or graueld.

The good wife R. Tush you laugh, If you were plagued as some are, you wold not make so light account of it.

M. B. You thinke the deuill can kill mens cattell, and lame both man and beast at his pleasure: you thinke if the witch intreate him and send him he will go, and if she will not haue him go, he will not meddle. And you thinke when he doth come, you can driue him away with an hoat spitte, or with burning a liue henne or a pigge.

The good wife R. Neuer tell me I thinke so, for you your selfe haue thought so: and let them say what they can all the Scripture men in the world shall neuer perswade me otherwise.

M. B. I do wonder, not so much at your ignorance as at this, that I was euen of the same mind that you are and could not seé mine owne folly.

The good wife R. Folly? how wise you are become of a suddaine? I know that their spirits lye lurking, for they foster them: and when any body hath angred them, then they call them forth and send them. And looke what they bid them do, or hire them to do, that shall be done: as when she is angry, the spirite will aske her what shall I do? such a man hath misused me sayth she, go kill his Cow, by and by he goeth & doth it. Go kill such a womans hens, downe go they. And some of them are not content to do these lesser harmes, but they will say, go make such a man lame, kill him, or kill his child. Then are they readie and will do any thing: And I thinke they be happy that can learne to driue them away.

M. B. If I should reason with you out of the worde of God, you should seé that all this is false which you say. The deuill can not kill nor hurt any thing no not so much as a poore henne. If he had power who can escape him? Would he tarrie to be sent or intreated by a woman? he is a stirrer vp vnto all harmes and mischiefes.

The good wife R. What tell you me of Gods worde? doth not Gods word say there be witches, and doe not you thinke God doth suffer bad people? Are you a turnecote? Fare you well, I will talke no longer with you.

M. B. She is wilfull in deéde. I will leaue you also.

Sam. I thanke you for your good companie.

FINIS.