A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 7 of 8

Dan. It is a most easie thing for the deuill to tell witches, that such a man or such a woman is a witch, and hath this or that secret marke vpon them. And within these few yeares he hath by witches and cunning men, accused such as were very religious and godly. Men must beware that they proceed not vpō his testimony: he is not to be medled withall, nor any medling which he vseth, is to be taken in good part, seéing he doth all in deép subtilties.

M. B. I do take it, that the testimony of the deuill ought not of it selfe to haue any force with a Iurie, vnlesse it can be prooued by some other firme proofes. But what say you vnto this, a witch is condemned, and telleth at the gallows not onlie what she hath done, but also of whom she first had her spirit. She doth this in repentance, and euen readie to depart out of the worlde. It is to bee presumed that she will not in this case lie, nor accuse falsly: Let it be some woman in another towne, whome she saith, brought her the spirite. This woman is also suspected by some of her neighbours, apprehended and brought to iudgement, and stiflie denieth that she is any witch, or that she euer deliuered any spirite vnto the other which accused her. Nowe here is the question, Is not the testimonie of the woman vpon her death, a sufficient warrant for a Iurie to find this woman guiltie? here they haue now the testimonie not of the Deuill to proceéd by, but of a woman, and though not vpon her oath, yet vpon her death, which is no lesse.

Dan. This testimonie may seeme to be sufficient euen to warrant a Iurie to finde guilty, though it touch life: but if we look well into it, we shall see it is not.

M. B. It may be you take it to be infirme, because it is the testimony but of one.

Dan. Nay, not only in respect that it is the testimony but of one, but that it is the testimony of such a one.

M. B. I put the case of such an one as doeth shew repentance, who though she hath bene bad, yet now may bee beleeued.

Dan. I do not meane in that respect, as to say she was a witch, and therefore not to be credited: but if shee repent neuer so much, yet her testimony in this is weake, because she may be vtterly deceiued, and think she telleth the truth, when it was nothing so, but she vtterly deluded.

M. B. Doe you meane, that […] may make the other woman thinke, that such a woman deliuered her the spirit, and neuer no such matter?

Dan. Yea, that is my meaning.

M. B. It is farre beyond my reach to seé how that can bee.

Dan. You must cōsider that the deuil doth many waies delude witches, and make them beleeue things which are nothing so. In Germany and other countries, the deuilles haue so deluded the witches, as to make them beleéue that they raise tempests of lightenings and thunders. For the deuils do know when these things be comming, tempests of winds, and thunders, and faine would he make the blind world beleéue that those great works of God, be not Gods but his: And that is the cause why he coueteth to appeare in them. These deuils make the witches beleéue, that at their request they kil both men and beasts, and many waies afflict, when as many of the things fal out naturally, which they would seéme to doe, and the rest in which they haue power giuen to worke, they stirre vp the witch but vnder a collour for to send them. These deuils make the witches in some places beleéue, that they are turned into the likenesse of wolues, that they rend and teare sheepe, that they meét together & banquet, that sometimes they flie or ride in the ayre, which thinges indeéd are nothing so, but they strongly delude the fantasies of the witches: Euen so the deuill can delude a poore woman with the likenesse of another woman deliuering a mouse or a catte vnto her, by appearing in such a likenes. Or he can set a strong fantasie in the mind that is oppressed with melancholie, that such or such a matter was, which indeéd was neuer so. Men must be wise in these causes, or els may they soon be circumuented by the craftes of Satan and drawen into great sinne.

M. B. If it be thus, then how should a Iurie condemne by their verdict any witch? For she hath not killed, nor the deuill at her request, but maketh her beleéue he did it at her request.

Dan. A witch by the word of God ought to die the death not because she killeth men, for that she cannot (vnlesse it be those witches which kill by poyson, which eyther they receiue from the deuill, or he teacheth them to make) but because she dealeth with deuils. And so if a Iurie doe finde proofe that she hath dealt with deuils, they may and ought to find them guiltie of witchcraft.

M. B. If they find them guilty to haue dealt with deuils, and cannot say they haue murdered men, the law doth not put them to death.

Dan. It wer to be wished, that the law were more perfect in that respect, euen to cut off all such abhominations. These cunning men and women which deale with spirites and charmes seéming to doe good, and draw the people into manifold impieties, with all other which haue familiarity with deuils, or vse coniurations, ought to bee rooted out, that others might seé and feare.

M. B. You will not haue the testimony of Deuils to be of any credit with a Iury, what say you then vnto men, there be some which die, and take it vpon their death, that they are bewitched, and will say precisely such or such haue done it. For that is in the other point touching likelihoods.

Dan. They are bewitched indeéd, for the deuill doeth delude their minds: for you shall finde them able to render no reason but onlie this, in their conscience the partie is naught and they are out of doubt it is so.

M. B. That may bee as you say in some, but I haue knowne a woman my selfe which many haue counted to be a witch, and many things haue fallen out where she hath taken displeasure. Do you not thinke that is a firm proofe? She denieth, but the things which fall out, doe manifest her to be naught.

Dan. You must shew the things, and thereby it will appeare.

M. B. She fell out, or els at the least seémed to be displeased with one, and he had an hogge died suddainlie. An other thought she was displeased with him, and his horse fell sicke. A third could not sit vpon his stoole at worke. And within nine or ten yeares space diuers others. One saw the deuill bigger than a cat with great eies. An other was haunted with a spirite. An other brewing, the drinke would not worke in the fatte. An other sawe a thing in her house as big as a lambe, playing in the window: Another in her grieuous torment saw the woman stand by her all the night, whom she suspected to bewitch her, and diuers such like, which were too long to recken vp. If she were not a witch, how should all these fall out so fit?

Dan. I haue shewed already, that where Satan hath a witch to deale by, hee bringeth it about, that in all such things as he hath power giuen him of God, he will seéme to do nothing but requested and sent by the witch. In those things which fall out in sicknesses, lamenes & death, vpon naturall causes, he worketh in such sort, as that he maketh the witch beleéue she doeth them. And this hee coueteth to haue breake forth by her confession. Now, where he hath no witch to deale by, he gaineth exceedingly, if hee can worke in the minds of any a strong suspition of any man or woman. For if it be once begun, hee pursueth it with all his power and cunning. If one bee visited with grieuous torment of sicknes, and be so ignorant, and voide of the faith in Gods prouidence, that he imagine the deuill doeth it at the sending by a witch, the deuill will delude him, and make him beleéue that the witch standeth by him. The man or woman suspected cannot come there: Who then worketh that illusion but Satan? Another is affrayde of the deuill to be sent vnto him, by that partie whome he suspecteth to be a witch: and thus through want of faith in God, giueth the deuill the more power ouer him, either to hurt, or to appeare vnto him. For Satan haunteth all men continuallie, seéking all occasions, and neédeth not to be sent by man or woman. They be exceéding blind which will reason thus, an euill spirit came and appeared vnto me, after I had angred such a woman, therfore she sent him. Satan if he haue power to doe harme, or knowe where somewhat will follow, is hee not cunning to make the party which shall receiue the harme, to fall out with some that hee may suspect, and so the harme may seém to come from that partie? Againe, in feare, in the darke men take some litle cat or dog to be an vglie deuill. As not long since a rugged water Spaniell hauing a chaine, came to a mans doore that had a saut Bytch, and some espied him in the darke, and said it was a thing as big as a colt, and had eyes as great as saucers. Hereupon some came to charge him, and did charge him in the name of the Father, the Sonne and the holy Ghost, to tell what he was. The dogge at the last told them, for he spake in his language, & said, bowgh, and thereby they did know what he was. If he do knowe where harmes do follow vpon naturall causes in men or beasts, he laboureth either to make them offended, and to fall out with the partie that is suspected, or at the least to perswade thē of such displeasure conceiued, that the harms may seéme to come from the same. If he do torment indeéd hauing power to possesse the bodie, he will not sticke to lie, and to say such a woman sent him.

M. B. And doeth it not fall out sometimes, that as he saith such a woman sent him, so the woman vpon examination confesseth so much.

Dan. Yea, but I speak where he hath no witch to deale by, but pursueth the innocent with suspition vpon suspition, that men may be guilty of innocent blood. Hee telleth the trueth sometimes, to the end hee may be credited when he doth lie. For let no man be so simple as to thinke, that he will euer tell trueth but for some wicked purpose.

M. B. Yet this of all the rest seémeth most strange vnto me, how so many things should fall out, as it seémeth, after the displeasure of a suspected person, and some of them such as apparantly are done by Satan, as in drinke not working, or in creame, when butter will not come, and yet the party suspected is not a witch.

Dan. Oh sir the sleights of Satan in compassing such matters be marueilous. I knowe it is taken (as they say) to be dead sure that the party is a witch, if sundry such shewes of matters do concurre. But how easie a thing is it for crafty deuils to compasse such matters?

M. B. Then you doe not thinke that common fame is sufficient to warrant the conscience of the Iuror, to condemne any.

Dan. Experience doeth teach howe heady much people are in iudging men or women to be witches vpon euerie surmise. And the power imagined to bee in witches, which breédeth a feare in many, causeth them to bee credulous. Many go so farre, that if they can intice children to accuse their parents, they thinke it a good worke.

M. B. You say the testimony of the deuill is not to beé taken, although it be manifest that he doth many times tell the trueth, because when he speaketh the trueth, hee doeth it of a bad purpose. And you hold it the testimony of the deuil, not only which he speaketh when anie charge him, but also which the cunning men & women giue, in as much as they can say nothing but vpon his word. Moreouer, vnles I mistake you, the testimony of a witch in many things at her death, is not as you say any other than the testimonie of the deuil, because the deuill hath deceiued her, and made her beleéue things which were nothing so. Besides al this, you wil haue likelihoods and suspitions to be of no waight, nor common fame and opinion to mooue the conscience of a Iurie, because Satan is exceéding subtill in all these. Then how shall a Iurie finde a witch? What proofes will you haue?

Dan. Men are vpon their oath to deale, & it doth touch life, if they doe finde any guiltie of witchcraft. This is a most waightie matter: whereupon it followeth, that there must be eyther due proofe by sufficient witnesses, or els the confession of the witch. For if the testimony be such as may be false, as al that commeth from deuils is to be suspected: or if it be but vpon rumors, and likelihoods, in which there may be exceéding sleights of Satan, as for the most parte there be: how can that Iury answere before God, which vpon their oath are not sure, but that so proceéding they may condemne the innocent, as often it commeth to passe.

M. B. You mistake one point, for the finding of a witch guilty by a Iury doeth not in all causes touch blood.

Dan. I am not deceiued, for where the Iurie hauing but likelihoods doth find a man or a woman guilty but for killing a beast, it casteth them into prison, setteth them vpon the pillorie, and not only diffameth them for euer, but also if suspition follow again and arraignment, it is death: you seé then how neére a way they haue made vnto blood. But if it touch not blood, but the party escape with the imprisonment and pillory, & neuer againe fall into suspition, how grieuous an infamie is it, to haue bene condemned by Iury to be a witch? I speake it where it is only vpon suspition, or suchtestimonie as is onelie from Satan, and the partie may be cleére.

M. B. It falleth out sometimes that vpon suspition and common fame they hitte right, and the partie which would not confesse any witchery vpon examination, and arraignment, being condemned doth confesse it.

Dan. Let it be graunted that the Iury vpon Satans testimony, or suspitions and common fame, sometimes hitteth right, which yet I feare is very seldome, that is no warrant before God for men that are sworne, for are they sworne to indict vpō likelihoods, or vpon knowledge in that which vpon sound testimony or confession they shall finde? If the party be a witch which is suspected, & yet no proofe, the Iury doeth more rightly in acquitting, than in condemning, for what warrant haue they vpon their oath to goe by gesse, or to find that which they knowe not?

M. B. I doe take it men offend grieuously, if vpon vnsufficient proofe they condemne the innocent, and especially, because they are solemnly sworne: but if they hit right, though it be only by coniectures and likelihoods, I cannot seé how they should therein offend: they condemne not the innocent, they do the party no wrong.

Dan. I do not say they are to bee charged with any innocent blood, or wrong to the partie: but I aske what warrant they haue before God vpon oath to touch blood by suspitons. Admit one be arraigned vpon felony, the likelihoods ar great that he is guiltie of the same, but yet it may be heé is cleére. What is a Iurie nowe to doe? Are they to venture vpon the life of a man by their oath by suspitions? Let it be he is one that God knoweth to be guiltie, but no man can disclose the same, and therefore they cleare him, doe they commit anie offence? Are they bound to find that which they cannot know? What innocent person then may not be condemned?

Sam. I pray you giue me leaue a litle. I doe not well conceiue this matter about finding out and condemning of witches. It is somewhat strange vnto me which you speak I haue my selfe sundry times bene of the Iurie when witches haue bene arraigned, we haue found them guilty vpon common fame, vpon likelihoods, and vpon such testimonie as you disalow. They haue indeéd taken it vpon their deaths that they were innocent, but that neuer made me to doubt but that they were witches: for it is saide, the deuill hath such power ouer them, that he will not suffer them to confesse.

Dan. What should mooue you to thinke that the deuill will not haue them to confesse? you seé some doe confesse when they be examined, and when they be executed: The deuil hath power ouer the most desperat theéues and murtherers?

Sam. Yea but he careth not so much though the theéues and the murtherers do confesse, it maketh not so much against him, as when witches bewray all.

Dan. What, doe you take it he is loath to be diffamed or hardly thought off? Otherwise what should it make against him when witches confesse? It is some step to repentance when theéues and murtherers acknowledge their sinnes, and if he can hinder them, or hold them desperate from confessing he will. It is apparant that he coueteth to haue witches to confesse, it maketh so much for him, He would haue men iudge that there be an hundred fo[…]e more witches than there be. He discloseth by his cunning men & women, and otherwise. He coueteth greatly to haue it thought that he doeth all, in tempestes, in strange plagues and diseases which light vpon man or beast. And for this cause hee maketh the witch beleéue and confesse more than all, that is, that at her request he did that which he neuer did nor could doe: vnlesse we will denie the soueraintie, and prouidence of God ouer all.

Sam. If Satan gaine so much by disclosing them, what should be the reason that men are generally perswaded that he coueteth to haue the thinges kept secret, and so will not let the witch confesse.

Dan. It ariseth from false perswasions, and frō a false feare that witches doe so many harmes, and that at their sending and request the spirites worke all. If Satan be so kind and seruiceable to the witch: how is it that he doth not fetch her some money? For he knoweth where it is lost, or where it lyeth in mens houses. He telleth the witch he can make a man lame. He saith he can kill an horse. Yea at sometime he will say he can and will (if she will haue it so) kill a man. As if it were in his power to doe many great thinges, and will not but requested. Let vs seé if all the deuils can fetch one peny out of a mans house, whose horse or cow they say they haue killed. The coniurer, sayth he, can coniure him into a man, or out of a man: let him coniure him but into a mans chest if he can, to fetch somewhat from thence. If the deuils can not do these thinges, then be assured that either they make but a shew of killing and laming, as they do in the most of such harmes, or else where they do hurt, it is vpon speciall leaue from God, and not from the witches pleasure. And to what purpose then should all such iugglings and shewes serue, if they should be kept close and not confessed.

Sam. Yet for my better satisfaction giue me leaue without offence to lay open some particulars which I haue seén. I was of a Iurie not many yeares past, when there was an old woman arrained for a witch. There came in eight or ten which gaue euidence against her. I doe not remember euery particular: but the chiefe for some thinges were of small value. One woman came in and testified vppon her oath that her husband vpon his death bed, tooke it vpon his death, that he was bewitched, for he pined a long time. And he sayde further, he was sure that woman had bewitched him. He tooke her to be naught, and thought she was angry with him, because she would haue borrowed fiue shillinges of him, and he denyed to lend it her. The woman tooke her oath also, that she thought in her conscience that the old woman was a witch, and that she killed her husband. There came in a man that halted, he tolde a shrewde tale. I once, sayd he, had both my legges sound. This old woman and I fell out and did chide. She sayd she would be euen with me. Within thrée daies after I had such a paine in my knée that I could not stand. And euer since I go haulting of it, and now and then féele some paine. There came in an other, a little fellowe that was very earnest, me thinkes I sée him yet. He tooke his oath directly that she was a witch: I did once anger her sayde he, but I did repent me: for I looked somewhat would follow. And the next night, I saw the vgliest sight that euer I saw: I awaked suddainely out of my sléepe, and there was me thought a great face, as bigge as they vse to set vp in the signe of the Saracens-head, looked full in my face. I was scarce mine owne man two dayes after. An other came in, a woman and her child dyed with gréeuous paine, & she tooke her oath, that in her conscience she killed her child. Then followed a man, and he sayde he could not tell, but he thought she was once angry with him because she came to begge a few pot-hearbes, and he denied her: and presently after he heard a thing as he thought to whisper in his eare, thou shalt be bewitched. The next day he had such a paine in his back, that he could not sit vpright: he sayd he sent to a cunning woman, shee tolde he was bewitched, and by a woman that came for pot-hearbes. But she sayd he should recouer of it, and so he sayd he did within some tenne dayes. Then came in two or thrée graue honest men, which testified that she was by common fame accounted a witch. We found her giltie, for what could we doe lesse, she was condemned and executed: and vpon the ladder she made her prayer, and tooke it vpon her death shee was innocent and frée from all such dealings. Do you thinke we did not well?