A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 5 of 8

M. B. Indeéd an innocent person may come in at such a time: but I haue heard, I cannot tell howe true it is, that therefore there is a further thing which they obserue. And that is this, the cunning man biddeth, set on a posnet or some pan with nayles, and seéth them, and the witch shal some in while they be in seéthing, and within a fewe dayes after, her face will be all bescratched with the nailes. And I haue heard that some olde woman comming in, her face hath indeed bene as it were scratched within a few dayes after, for the shingles or such like brake forth.

Dan. O the depth of Satans illusions to make blinde people becom witches, and to deale by him. He doth know the corrupted humours in the bodie, which will breake out into the smal pockes, or such like, and if he can procure one to come in which is euen ready to haue them, what a shew doth he make, as if the uails did it?

M. B. This were great subtiltie of Satan.

Dan. Nay, we are not able to imagine the depth of his sleights, neither can we seé the secrete force, wherwith he moueth the minds of ignorant people, and so bringeth about his enterprises. There doth lie the greatest cunning of Satan.

M. B. Indeéd it seémeth strange and vncredible that the deuil should so moue the minds of men, and lead them vnto this thing and that thing, and in the meane time they doe not know it, but thinke they goe against the deuil. But now I haue a further doubt. I confesse it is an easie thing for the deuill to tell where a thing is that is lost or stollen, but what power hath he to heale that which is sick or sore? Out of question they be innumerable which receiue helpe by going to the cunning men. You say he helpeth the bodie that he may destroy the soule. Hee helpeth that men may seéke vnto him, and so set him, as it were, in the place of God. Me thinketh it should not be in the power of deuilles for to helpe.

Dan. Indeed that is well mooued, there lieth a great sleight of the deuill in it. You say that innumerable do receiue help by going vnto cunning men. I warrant you not so many as you are perswaded.

M. B. O verie manie. There be a number which doe neuer make it knowne, because it is misliked by some.

Dan. Yea, and there be many which come home again with a flea in their eare, they receiue an answere, as good as a flim flam.

M. B. It may be they come too late, the matter is ouer farre spent, and if they had come sooner, they coulde haue holpen them.

Dan. Yea, a number of such cosoning answers the deuill maketh which satisfie ignorant people, which are reato beleéue all that he telleth, and to daunce after his pipe. One commeth to him for his childe, if he know the disease be deadly, he will say it is bewitched, but so farre spent, that there is no help, the childe wil hardlie liue two daies, the father commeth home and findeth his child deade, or it dieth within two or threé dayes after, here the deuill getteth credit. Another is sicke and grieuously tormented, heé sendeth: Satan doth seé (for he sendeth them) that the disease is euen spent, and that the cause of it begin to fail, and so that the partie in a few dayes will recouer, here he prescribeth one paltrie or other, they vse it, the man is recouered, and so should haue bene without the deuils medicine, but now Satan hath gotten further credite. Another is sicke and languisheth, his neighbours tell him, he may be bewitched, it is good to send, and then he shal know. He sendeth, the deuill doth not know whether the sicke man can escape and recouer, or not. He saith, it is like he is bewitched: and teacheth what to doe, if there bee any help at all, but doubteth, and so whether the man liue or die, Satan saueth his credite whole and sound. And many of these answeres he giueth. Againe, we must note that mans imagination is of great force, either to continue a disease, or to diminish and take away some diseases. And in this also Satan deludeth some, for his medicine seémeth to do somwhat, when it is but the parties conceit.

M. B. These be sleightes indeéde: but mee thinketh you goe farre in the last. I doe not seé how a mans conceit can help him.

Dan. Imagination is a strong thing to hurt, all men doe finde, and why should it not then be strong also to help, when the parties mind is cheared, by beleéuing fully that he receiueth ease?

M. B. But yet it is hard to shewe that euer anie such cure hath bene wrought.

Dan. It is not hard to shew, for that which men doe, it is presumed the deuill can doe the like. And I haue heard of a mery companion that wrought such a cure. Ther was one in London (as report goeth) which was acquainted with Feats, Now, this Feats had a blacke dogge, whome he called Bomelius. This partie afterward had a conceit that Bomelius was a deuill, and that hee felt him within him. He was in heauinesse, and made his moane to one of his acquaintance, who had a merie head, he tolde him, heé had a friend could remooue Bomelius. Hee had him prepare a breakfast, and he would bring him. Then this was the cure, he made him be stripped naked and stand by a good fire, and though he were fatte ynough of himselfe, basted him all ouer with butter against the fire, and made him weare a sleéke stone next his skin vnder his bellie, and the man had present remedie, and gaue him afterward greate thankes.

M. B. I know men haue many foolish imaginations: but though one imagination may driue out another, which is not the curing of any disease in deéd, but of an imagination: yet it doth not followe, that where there is an apparant griefe, that a mans conceit can helpe to cure it.

Dan. Yes, the conceit doth much, euen where there is an apparant disease. A man feareth hee is bewitched, it troubleth al the powers of his mind, and that distempereth his bodie, maketh great alterations in it, and bringeth sundrie griefes. Now, when his minde is freéd from such imaginations, his bodily griefe which grew from the same is eased. And a multitude of Satans cures are but such.

M. B. Nay, there be also euils which be apparant in the bodie, and bee cured, which come not of anie feare or imagination: how can these be cured by any conceit? There is great reason that such griefes may be cured indeede by quieting the minde, as did growe from the disturbance of the same.

Dan. Yea, and that falleth out sometimes in griefes of the body, which doeth not growe from imagination, but from some other passions. As I can giue you an example, which is written and reported by a very reuerend learned Physitian. The cure was done by a lewde cosening knaue in Germanie. A woman had bleare eies that were watery. The knaue lodging there, promised for certainty that hee would heale them: hee did hang a litle writing about her necke, charging strictlie, that it should not be taken from thence nor read, nor opened, for if any of these were done, she could haue no help at all by it. The woman had such a confidence in thethinge, and was so merry and glad, that she left weéping (for her often weéping and teares had spoiled her eies) and so by little and litle, the moysture stayed, and her eies were whole. It fell out that she lost the writing, whereat she was in such griefe and sorrowe, and weeping, that her eies were sore againe. Another founde the writing, opened it, and read it. It was written in the Germane tongue, to this effect translated into English: The deuill pluck out thine eies, and fill their holes with his dung. Was not this, thinke you, a proper salue for to cure her eies? If this medicine had taken effect, her eies shuld not haue ben healed, but plucked quite out. We may not think but that Satan hath mo cousening tricks than al men in the world, for men are but his schollers. Againe, where men faile, he can worke somewhat in the affections of the parties mindes. And you shall heare them say, when any charme is vsed, you must beleeue it will helpe, or els it will doe you no good at all. Thus if it were well seene into, the greatest part of your innumerable cures, come to bee mere cosonages.

M. B. Well, let all this be true as you haue saide: Yet there be many thinges wherein the deuilles doe helpe. What say you to the boy which healed within few daies as he had scratched the witch, whereas his sores were most grieuous before, and could not be cured? What say you to that which they doe, when butter will not come, or when drinke will not worke in the fat? What say you to the burning of some liue thing, as hogge or henne, and the harme ceassing? And finallie, what say you to the helping of them where the deuill […] doth torment their bodies,

Dan. All these are answered in few wordes, that where he hath power to hurt either man or beast, drinke or butter he helpeth only by giuing place, and ceasing to hurt, which as I shewed you before, he doth most willinglie, to bring to passe, that men may seék to him, & become euen verie witches. If a man be vexed & tormented by a deuil, & men seek by fasting & prayer to cast him foorth, euen instantly intreating the Lord, thē he goeth out with much a do, and vnwillingly, as ouercome & expelled by the power of God. But when he hurteth, as you say he did the butchers sonne, and they seéke to him, and will followe his presciptions, as to draw blood of the witch, he goeth out willingly, I meane he ceaseth from hurting the bodie: for he goeth not out indeéde, but rather goeth further in, and seateth himselfe deéper in the soule. And so is it in all the rest. How gladlie wil he cease to hurte the hennes, so that to please him, a henne may be burnt aliue? his helping is no more but a ceasing from doing harme, if he had power giuen him to hurt.

Sam. This is a strange thing if it be so. There be thousands in the land deceiued. The woman at R. H. by report hath some weeke fourtie come vnto her, and many of them not of the meaner sort. But I doe but hinder, I pray you go forward.

Dan. The deuill can deceiue thousand thousands, and euen the wisest for this world, when they will not be taught of God, but dispise his doctrine, then are they iustly giuen ouer to be disciples of the deuill.

M. B. If there be such deceit in all these things, and that the witches do not kill nor hurt, but the deuill craftilie séemeth to kill and to hurt when the diseases be naturall and maketh the witch beleeue that hee hath done all at her request, Or where God hath giuen him power, he stirreth her vp to send him, as if either hee could not, or would not meddle, vnles he had bene sent, Seeing all lieth vpon Satan, it should seeme, there is no reason that witches should be put to death: but the scripture doth command they shuld be put to death.

Dan. The holy scriptures doe command that witches should be put to death: therein you say right: but if you did take it, that the word of God commaundeth they shall not be suffered to liue, because they kill men and beastes, or because they send their spirits which possesse men, and torment their bodies, you are much deceiued: For you shal neuer finde, of all that haue bene tormented and plagued by euill spirites, that the holie Ghoste layeth it vpon witches. The causes why they should be put to death are, that they haue familiaritie with deuils, which are the blasphemous enemies of God: and that they seduce the people into errour, to runne after deuils, and deuilish practises, and that they haue such wicked minds. Although they neuer minde to kill or to hurt any, but to doe them good, as they imagine, yet if they deale with deuilles they ought to die for it.

M. B. Then you take it, that these cunning men and women, vnto whome so many runne for helpe, which are thought to do very much good, and no hurt at all, ought to be rooted out, and destroyed. Let vs knowe what scripture there is for it.

Dan. Yea, of all other they ought to die, because they doe the greatest harme. Other witches that haue spirites are thought to doe harm, because the deuil at the appointment of God doth harme, […] he beareth in hand hee doeth it at the request of the witch: but these that seéme to doe good, do harme indeéd, and that many wayes, as euerie one that light in him, may easily seé. And for the scripture[…]s which shewe that they ought to die, reade first in the 22. chapter of Exodus. ver. 18, and there it is said, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to liue.

M. B. That place we take to be meant of these witches which send their spirits to doe harme: the other be not called witches.

Dan. It is that witch, that is there commanded to beé put to death, that is called Mecasshephah: such were they and so called, which before Pharaoh did withstand Moses, and made in shewe rods turned into serpents. So that in one kinde the Lord doeth include all such as worke by the deuill. For there be diuers others sortes named in Deut. 18. and they bee all called an abhomination to the Lorde: and no abhomination is to be suffered to remaine among the Lords people. Also in the same place, when he saith, Let there not be found in theé any such or such, as he there reckoneth them vp: It is not alone to will that none should practize such thinges, but also that they should bee rooted out.

M. B. I must neéds agreé vnto that which the worde of God doth set down. But this is the hardest matter of al, how they shall be conuicted.

Dan. Why doe you take it to bee the hardest matter, how a witch shall be conuicted? how is a theéf or a murtherer conuicted but by proofe? If there be vehement suspition, and the party vpon examination confesse the fact, that is a sufficient proofe. If the partie doe denie, and two or threé of credite doe testifie vpon their knowledge with a solemne oath, that he is guiltie of the fact, that is also a sufficient proofe. And touching this, God commanded by Moses, that none should dy, vnlesse the matter were prooued against them by two witnesses at the least. Deutronom. 19. ver. 15.

M. B. I graunt, if the partie do denie, and especially, if the matter touch life, that there ought by the worde of God to be due proofe by two witnesses at the least. This may be for murtherers, this may be for theéues: but for witches I seé not how. They deale so secretely with their spirits, that very seldome they can be conuinced by flat testimonies of men, as to say directly they haue heard or seén them send their spirits. And againe, it is a rare thinge to haue a witch confesse. For it is generallie thought the deuill hath such power ouer them, that he wil not suffer them to confesse.

Dan. O then I perceiue why you account it the hardest matter of all to conuict a witch, it both testimony and confession doe fayle: but what would you haue further?

M. B. I haue bene of this opinion, that if there were any likelihood, and suspition, and common fame, that it was euen proofe ynough, and the best deéde that could he done for to hang them vp, and so to ridde the countrey of them.

Dan. Then you thought that their spirites were hanged with them, and so the country being rid of the witches and their spirits, mens bodies and their cattell should bee safe.

M. B. I had a little more wit than to thinke so: but in trueth it was but a litle more. For I thought if all the witches were hanged, that then their spirits shoulde not haue anie to hire them nor to send them to hurte eyther man or beaste, but I seé mine owne follie, and that onlie God giueth the power vnto the deuils to afflict and trie the godly, and to vexe, torment, and plague the wicked, and that they shall do this, though all the witches in the world were hanged. I know they neéde none to cherish them, or to set them a worke.

Dan. But did you not feare if all suspected should be hanged, then some guiltles persons might be put to death? As you seé manie that haue bene executed as witches haue taken it vpon their death that they were innocent.

M. B. I will tel you my thought touching that point, which was this. The witches raise tempestes, and hurte corne and fruites vpon the treés, the witches bring the pestilence among men, and murraine among cattell: the witches send their spirits and make men lame, kill their children and their cattell: their spirits cannot bee taken heede of, nor kept out with doores and wals as theéues and murtherers, but come in when they bee sent, and doe so many harmes: for this cause I thought it a marueilous good worke to put all suspected to death, though some of them were innocent, that so sure worke might be made to haue not one left.

Dan. Did you not thinke it a fearfull thinge to shead innocent blood.

M. B. Yea, but I thought it much better that some should be put to death wrongfully, than to leaue any one witch, which might kill and destroy many.

Dan. Then I perceiue that this was the reason which did perswade you, that it was very good to put all to death that were suspected (although it might fall out that some of them were innocent) to auoyde greater inconuenience, and that is, if some few witches should escape, which might plague and kill many. Better a few should be put wrongfully to death, then many should bee tormented and killed, or lamed by the deuilles. But are you still of that mind?

M. B. No verily. For you haue put me in minde that the wicked spirits receiue their power to plague both mē and beasts, only from God. They seéke about, they watch when and where hee will giue them leaue to touch, where God will trie the faith and patience of the iust by him, as he did in Iob, he sendeth him, if he will be sent by a witch, it is but vnder a collour, shee giueth him not the power, hee would touch though she were not. Where God will strike and plague the wicked by him, he giueth him leaue, it is not the anger of the witch that bringeth it, but their owne wickednes, whereby they haue prouoked God to displeasure, and so giue this enemy power ouer them.

Dan. Then so long as these two thinges stand, that God by Satan will afflict in some sort and trie his children (as you alleage he did Iob) and that he will vse him as his executioner, to plague and torment the wicked, as he sent an euill spirite to vexe king Saule: so long the harmes done by wicked spirites shall not cease, although all the witches and coniurers in the worlde were hanged vp. Looke then to the causes, if wee will remooue the effects. As if thou feare God, and Satan afflict thee, stand fast in faith and patience, and waite vpon God for thy deliuerance. If thou endure temptation, thou art blessed, and shalt be crowned. Iam. 1. ver. 12. If thy sinnes haue prouoked God, and the enemie doth touch thy body or thy goods, fall downe and humble thy selfe with fasting and prayer, intreat the Lord to turne away his displeasure: looke not vpon the witch, lay not the cause where it is not, seéke not help at the hands of deuils, be not a disciple of witches, to commit thinges abhominable, by polluting the name of God, and honouring Satan, nor thirst not after the blood which is innocent, as it falleth out in many.

M. B. I doe assent vnto al this: and surely it is a great fault to shead innocent blood.

Dan. We may learne in the holie scriptures, that the sheading of innocent blood is a verie horrible thing in the eies of almightie God: and a very grieuous thing it is to haue a land polluted with innocent blood: and that is one special cause why Satan dealeth by witches: for he laboureth to wrappe in many guiltlesse persons vpon suspitions, he suggesteth by his helping witches, that ther be many hurting witches in all townes, and villages, that so hee may set the multitude in a rage, […] to suspect vpon euery likelihood that he can deuise or make shewe of, And thus whole Iuries must become guiltie of innocent hlood, by condemning as guiltie, and that vpon their solemne oath, such as be suspected vpon vaine surmises and imaginations, and illusions, rising from blindnes and infidelitie, and feare of Satan which is in the ignorant sort.

M. B. If you take it, that this is one craft of Satan, to bring manie to be guiltie of innocent blood, and euen vpon their oathes, which is horrible, what wold you haue the iudges and Iuries to doe, when any are arraigned of suspition to be witches?

Dan. What would I haue them doe? I would wish them to bee most warie and circumspect that they bee not guilty of innocent blood. And that is, to condemne none but vpon sure ground, and infallible proofe, because presumptions shall not warrant or excuse them before God if guiltlesse blood be shead.

M. B. It falleth out sometimes when a theefe is arraigned, or a murtherer, that direct euidence faileth, and yet such circumstances are brought, as doe euen enforce the Iurie in their conscience to find them guiltie: It seemeth that this holdeth chiefly about witches, because their dealing is close and secrete, and it is also thought that the deuill hath so great power ouer them, that he will not suffer them to confesse.