A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 6 of 8

Dan. You bring two reasons to prooue that in conuicting witches, likelihoods and presumptions ought to be of force more than about theéues or murtherers: The first, because their dealing is secrete: the other because the deuil will not let them confesse. Indeéde men imagining that witches do worke strange mischiefes, burne in desire to haue them hanged, as hoping the[…] to be freé, and then vpon such perswasions as you mention, they suppose it is a very good worke to put to death all which are suspected. But touching theeues and murtherers let men take heéde how they deale vpon presumptions, vnles they be very strong for we seé that Iuries sometimes doe condemne such as be guiltlesse, which is an hard thing, especiallie being vpon their oath. And in witches aboue all other, the proofes had neéd to be strong because there is greater sleight of Satan to pursue the guiltles vnto death, than in the other. Here is speciall care and wisdome to be vsed. And so likewise for their confessing, Satan doth gaine more by their confession, than by their deniall, and therefore rather bewrayeth them himselfe, and forceth them to confession, oftener than vnto deniall.

M. B. These things are beyond my reach, I cannot conceiue of them. I pray you open it so as that I may perceiue your meaning, and seé some ground of reason for that which you shall affirme.

Dan. Then is it requisite to stande vpon them more at large. And let vs begin with the latter.

M. B. If you go first to the latter, then shew some reason or experience that Satan bewrayeth the witches, and draweth them to confesse, and to disclose themselues, rather than to conceale and hide their doings. I can tell you this before hand, that the common opinion is otherwise, which seémeth to be grounded both vpon reason and experience.

Dan. I know the common opinion is as you say: But I do much marueill at it, seéing reason and experience doe prooue the contrary as I will shew. As first, touching reason, you will grant, that the deuils dealing altogether by sleight and subtilties, doe that which doeth most further their purposes and desires.

M. B. That is the verie reason why the deuill would by no meanes haue the witches bewrayed, as it is thought because he would lurke secretely to doe mischiefe.

Dan. Indeed it were a good reason to proue that […] if Satan receiued his power from the witch, or could doe nothing but by her sending, or neéded to be harboured by her, or had no minde to meddle, but as it were hired to satisfie her wrath. But seeing al these be absurd, and he vseth the witch and coniurer but vnder a colour to bring in further euils, it must needs followe, that the disclosing is fitter for his purpose, than the keeping secrete, for if they should be kept secrete, how should he make men think that he doth so many harmes at the request of the witch? howe should he drawe so many to runne after deuils, to seek help at their handes? how should he procure so many to vse wicked and blasphemous charms and sorceries, and in so horrible maner to abuse the blessed name of God, and his most sacred word? Or how should he draw the people into manifold errours, and to thirst euen in rage after innocent blood? All these and a number such like hee procureth and furthereth, by disclosing witches.

M. B. But how shall this reason be confirmed by experience: No doubt in shew he is loath to haue his Dame (as some speake) disclosed.

Dan. You say well, that in shew he is loath to haue the witch bewrayed: for indeéde it is onely in shewe, seéing hee would make her and others also beleéue, euen when he doth bewray her by one means or other, that it is sore against his liking.

M. B. I pray you make that euident.

Dan. When one feéleth himselfe plagued any way, and doeth take it to be by Satan, admit it be so: he goeth to a cunning man, and he sheweth him in a glasse, or in a Chrystall the shape of the witch. Who now bewrayeth her?

M. B. That is the cunning mans spirite which bewrayeth her, and not her spirit which she dealeth withall.

Dan. You are not sure of that: for it may be the same deuill that she dealeth withall, that resembleth her in the glasse: none can doe it better.

M. B. I doe not thinke that he departeth away from her.

Dan. Yea, but you must remember that she which dealeth with a spirit, dealeth not with a deuill, but with deuils: for manie doe ioyn together. When one of them departeth and carieth the matter to the cunning man, they do not all depart. But what if it be as you said, that som other spirits do bewray, doe you thinke he doeth it against the liking of the witches spirite? Is Satan deuided against Satan? Will Satan bewray Satan to his hindrance? Remember what our Sauiour hath taught touching that.

M. B. Then if it be so, doe you not take it a sufficient proofe against a witch, euen for a Iurie to finde guilty vpon their oath, if a cunning man by his spirite doe bewray anie.

Dan. It is the most insufficient proofe that can bee, for although he doe tell true in bewraying many, as their own cōfessions do witnes: yet he doeth it of an euill purpose, he is a lyer, and the father of lies, he desireth chiefly to accuse the innocent, that he may bring men to bee guilty of innocent blood, […] make the people beleeue there be multitudes of witches, to set them a work to learne charmes and sorceries, and chiefly, that they may be brought to seeke vnto him, as the bewrayer euen in pitie, of such bad people. Now, because he craftily bewrayeth some, to get credite, shall mens verdict by oath, euen vnto blood, be grounded vpon his testimony? If a deuill should come in vnto a Iurie and say the partie about whome you enquire is a witch, should they beleéue him, or wold they say let him be sworn, and witnesse vpon his oath? If not, why should they beleéue that which he hath spoken to the cunning man?

M. B. Surely I am out of doubt he doth all in craft vnto a most bad purpose, and that no credite ought to bee giuen vnto his testimony when it is voluntary. But what say you to his testimonie, when he is euen charged and forced in the name and power of God to tell the trueth? It seémeth then he would conceale, but cannot.

Dan. The coniurer which supposeth that hee doeth bind by the name and power of God to tell him the trueth, is vtterlie deluded. For he is not bound, but is glad that the most glorious name of God is so horriblie abused, and that hee can drawe men into such a gulfe of all abhomination.

M. B. Nay, I doe not meane the coniurer, but when such as be godlie go about to cast him foorth by prayer.

Dan. This I take to bee your meaning: a man or a woman is possessed with a Deuill, put case it bee so indeéde (to distinguish them from so many counterfaits, as haue bene) and men assemble together where the possessiō is, and cal[…] vpon God, and then charge Satan in the name of Christ to tell how hee came there, and who sent him.

M. B. I meane so indeéde. And some being possessed, the deuill being charged to tell who sent him, he hath confessed, that such a man did coniure him in thither, or such a witch did send him. Shall not this be of force to conuince?

Dan. When any is possessed by the fiend, mens compassion, their loue and pity are to be shewed, euen to helpe what they can in such a distresse. They ought with all instant suit to intreat the Lord to shew mercy, and to expell him. The doctrin of the holy scriptures doth warrant this: but for men to talke and question with him, I seé no warrant at all by Gods word, much lesse to commaund and adiure him to depart. He is the Lords executioner, he hath sent him, wee may intreat the Lord to remooue him, but what authority haue we to command him to depart, where God hath sent him?

M. B. Men haue no authority, I grant, but they command and adiure him in the name and power of the Lord, for to depart.

Dan. That I take ought not to be, for mark this comparison: the Prince is displeased with a subiect for some disloyaltie: An Officer is sent from the Prince to attach and imprison him: shall he or any other charge this Officer in the Princes name to let him alone, and not to meddle? Is not their way only to pacifie the Prince, and so the Prince will command the Officer to cease? Euen so, wher God sendeth Satan his executioner, the only way is to intreat the Lord to be pacified, for then shall the tormentor no longer remaine.

M. B. Howe doeth this which you speake agreé with that which we read in the Acts of the Apostles, howe S. Paule commaunded the deuill to come out of a Mayde at Philippos?

Dan. The holy Apostles and others in the Primitiue Church, had an extraordinary power giuen them to caste foorth deuils, and to heale diseases, and they did execute the same power by the direction and instinct of the holy Ghost. We may not draw a patterne from that.

M. B. We seé that deuils are sometimes expelled.

Dan. They are when the Lord is intreated, otherwise they but seéme to be bound by adiuration and expelled. But how can it be prooued, that the father of lies may be bound, and forced through charge and adiuration in the name and power of God to tell the trueth? And what warrant haue we to learne any trueth from his mouth? As to say we command theé in the name of God, that thou tel vs who sent theé. Who sent theé? who sent theé? Mother Ioan, Mother Ioan, saith he. Also we command theé to tell vs, who sent theé. L. B. coniured me in hither (saith he) Shal wee thinke he doeth this euen compelled? Or shall we ground vpon it for certaintie, that he telleth no lie?

M. B. The deuill in a partie possessed hath said, such a man coniured me in hither. The coniurer hath bene put to death for it, and hath confessed so much. The deuill in an other hath said, such a woman sent me; it hath likewise bene confessed by the woman.

Dan. All this maketh for that which I affirme. The Lord giueth him power to possesse a man. He vnder a collour will be sent by a coniurer, or by a witch: and the one thinketh the deuill entreth at her intreaty: the other supposeth he doeth euen bind him thereto, whereas he ruleth both their mindes, and setteth them a worke. Then doeth hee willingly bewray them, euen for many subtill purposes: but chiefly, that he may establish coniurations, witchcrafts and charmes, that he may be sought vnto, that he may set the people a worke in their calamities to be troubled about witches and coniurers, as though they could plague, and neuer looke to God, and that bewraying some witches and coniurers, he may winne credite, and be beleeued, euen when he accuseth falslie, that he may bring innocent blood vpon the land. Let all men take heéd how vpon their oath they giue a verdict, especially touching life, vpon his word howsoeuer he seéme to be forced thereunto: all is most deépe craft and subtilty in him.

Sam. I pray you giue me leaue to speake a litle. You say the deuill willinglie bewrayeth witches and coniurers and that for many subtill purposes. I haue heard of diuers things done of late which seéme quite contrarie, and that he taketh it grieuously when they doe confesse and bewray matters.

Dan. He will seéme to take it in euill part, but let vs heare the matters, and you shall seé plainely that hee iuggleth, and maketh shewe of that which is contrary to his practise.

Sam. Well, I haue heard very credibly, that a woman of late, suspected another woman to be a witch, & that she had hurt her some way. She procured a gentleman to send for the partie suspected, and charging her in his presence, she left her to the Gentleman, who taking her aside, and walking alone with her, began to admonish and perswade her to renounce the deuill & to forsake such wicked waies: While he was thus perswading, and she denying stiffely that she was any such woman, suddainly there appeared some distance from them, a Weasill or Lobsterre looking euen vpon them. Looke (said the Gentleman) yonder same is thy spirit. Ah maister (said she) that is a vermine, there be many of them euery where. Well, as they went towards it, it was vanished out of sight: by and by it appeared againe, and looked vpon them. Surely (saide the Gentleman) it is thy spirit: but she still denyed, and with that her mouth was drawne awrie. Then hee pressed her further, and she confessed all. She confessed shee had hurt and killed by sending her spirit. The Gentleman being no Iustice, let her goe home, and did minde to open the matter vnto some Iustice: When she was come home, another witch meeteth her, and saith, Ah thou beast, what hast thou done? thou hast bewrayed vs all. What remedy nowe (saide she?) What remedy said the other? send thy spirite & touch him: she sent her spirit, and of a suddain the Gentleman had as it wer a flash of fire about him. He lifted vp his hart to God, and felt no hurt. The spirite returneth, and tolde he could not hurt him because he had faith: what then, said the other witch, hath hee nothing that thou maist touch? he hath a child said the other. Send thy spirit, sayd she, and touch the child: she sent her spirite, the childe was in great paine and died. The witches were hanged and confessed.

Dan. What is the chiefe thing which you alleadge this for?

Sam. To shew how vnwilling the deuill was that the witch should confesse and bewray things. No doubt it shuld seéme, that when the Gentleman was talking with her, hee appeared to call her away, for fear least she should confesse: and when she would not come away, he drew her mouth awry: and when she had confessed, the deuill complayned vnto the other witch, and made her chide her.

Dan. The thing is as clear as may be, that he willinglie bewrayed them: and will you imagine the contrarie? Why did he appeare in a likenesse, but euen to enforce her for to confesse, both by abashing, and giuing the Gentleman euident notice, especially, when he drew her mouth awrie? And why did he set on the other witch to mooue her that had confessed to send her spirit, but that he would haue the matter more open, and bring them both to light.

Sam. What should mooue him to bewray the witches? what could he gaine by it?

Dan. Nay, what almost doth he not gaine by it? Now all the country ringes of the matter. As if the witches set on their spirites to lame and to kill: and that they doe not meddle, but sent by them. He did knowe what power he had from God to afflict any: he will deale by witches: he maketh others affraid of them, that so they may accuse them. He findeth meanes to haue all disclosed. Hee mooueth the witches to send him against the gentleman: hee knoweth what he can doe: he returneth and saith there is faith: As though God did not giue him power sometimes to afflict the faithfull? Or as if he could touch al that haue no faith? If he could, the greatest part of the world shuld be destroied by him. For they be very few in the world in comparison which haue the true faith. Then must he be sent to the child that hath no faith: doeth not the faith of the parents holde Gods protection ouer their infants as ouer themselues? Here is Satans craft: either he did know by thinges breéding in the bodie of the child that it would at such time fall sicke and die: and he would be taken to bee the killer of the childe, to beare in hand that he hath such power & wil doe when he is requested. Or els he had power giuen him of God, and wold bring it about this way. If he did strike the childe, do you imagine he doeth it at her pleasure? Or doe you thinke he would neuer haue thought of any such thing, but moued by her? Doe not all the armies of deuils goe about continuallie, seéking whom they may deuour? Do they not waite where God wil giue them power to strike? Shall we still be so simple as to thinke that women neede to hire or to intreat them to doe harme? Looke vnto God, for those wicked spirits play all parts in the play, and delude both the witches and others.

Sam. I will tell you another thing which was done of late. A woman being suspected to be a witch, and to haue done some hurt among cattell, was examined, and confessed indeéd, that she had a spirite which did abide in a hollow treé, where there was an hole, out of which hee spake vnto her. And euer when she was offended with anie, shee went to that treé, and sent him to kill their cattell. She was perswaded to confesse her fault openly, and to promise that she wold vtterly forsak such vngodly waies: after she had made this open confession, the spirite came vnto her being alone. Ah, said he, thou hast confessed and bewrayed all, I coulde teéme it to rend theé in peéces: with that she was affrayde, and wound away, and got her into company. Within some few weeks after, she fel out greatly into anger against one man. Towards the treé she goeth, and before she came at it, Ah, said the spirite, wherefore commest thou? who hath angred theé? Such a man, said the witch. And what wouldest thou haue me doe saide the spirite? He hath (saith she) two horses going yonder, touch them or one of them. Well, I thinke euen that night one of the horses died, and the other was litle better. Indeéde they recouered that one againe which was not dead, but in verie euill case. Here mee thinketh it is plaine: he was angry that she had bewrayed all. And yet when she came to the treé he let goe all displeasure and went readily.

Dan. Doe you thinke all is plaine here. Indeéde here is that plaine dealing which deuils doe vse. First, doe you thinke Satan lodgeth in an hollow treé? Is hee become so lazy, and idle? hath he left off to be as a roaring lion, seéking whome he may deuour? hath he put off the bloody and cruell nature of the fiery Dragon, so that he mindeth no harm, but when an angrie woman shall intreat him to goe kill a Cow or a horse? Is he become so doting with age, that men shall espie his craft: yea, be found craftier than he is? Alas may there not be deép subtiltie in these things?

Sam. Doe you thinke there is nothing but subtiltie in these things?

Dan. Doe I think there is nothing but subtiltie? Tel me what you thinke. What other end can there be but subtiltie?

Sam. He may haue this purpose (as I think the deuils studie nothing els) to do harme.

Dan. I doe not denie that: for all his craft tendeth vnto harme. But what harme meane you?

Sam. You seé here he killed mens cattel.

Dan. It may be he did: but how know you that?

Sam. You seé he went at her request & killed one horse, and almost killed the other.

Dan. I wold be loath to adventure my hand vpon that: For who told you, that he killed the one, and almost killed the other?

Sam. The witch her selfe hath confessed the whole matter.

Dan. UUho told the witch so?

Sam. Her spirit told her that he did it at her request.

Dan. He is a credible person, and kind hee was vnto her as it seémeth.

Sam. Nay, but we see all things fell out according as she confessed.

Dan. How doe you meane?

Sam. UUhy, she confessed her fault, the spirite was angrie with her, afterward she fell out with that man, and vpon th[…] his horse died, she confessed she sent the spirit, how could all things fall out so fit?

Dan. The spirite when she came towardes the treé, asked her, wherfore commest thou? who hath angred theé?

Sam. He did so.

Dan. And doe you imagine that the deuill did lie there and knew nothing vntill she came and told him?

Sam. UUhy neéded he aske to her if he did know?

Dan. Because hee is subtill: for hee wrought in her heart, and kindled her wrath, and procured the falling out betweene her and that man: he did knowe eyther that the horses at that time had somwhat in them which would bring death, or els that the Lord had giuen him power for to strike them: he moued and wrought in her heart to haue her come againe to the treé: he seémed to be angrie that she had cōfessed before, but was not, but sought to haue things knowne. If he had not knowne that the horse should die, either by some naturall cause, which woulde then breake foorth, or by some power giuen to him, he wold not at this time haue mooued her heart to goe to the treé. And if her wrath had without his suggestion caried her so farre, he could quickly haue turned her: for great is the efficacie of Satans working in the hearts of such.

Sam. But I marked one thing which you said before, […] that it might be that God giueth sometimes power to the Deuill, euen at the sending of the witch.

Dan. I say that God in iustice giueth power vnto Satan to delude, because men refuse to loue his trueth: but that maketh not that the deuill obtaineth any power to hurt because the witch sendeth, but the fault is in men, the sinnes of the people giue power to the deuill: for God is offended, and sendeth (as S. Paule saith) strong delusion. But haue you any mo examples to prooue that the Deuill is not willing to haue witches bewrayed,

Sam. I haue heard of many such like, but you say all is but craft, and that he would haue men thinke hee doeth all harmes that are done.

Dan. The Deuill would haue men beleeue that hee doth all, if he could bring it about: And therefore, it is for his aduantage if he doe hurte, to haue it not kept secrete, but openly to be made knowne.

M. B. what say you then vnto this, a witch is apprehended vpon vehement suspition, and caried before a Iustice: he handleth the matter in such sort that she confesseth, as I heard of one not long since: her confession was to this effect: She had two spirits, one like a Weasill, the other like a Mouse. These, she said, did manie thinges for her. Now, she accused a woman about ten or twelue miles off, whom (it may be) she did not knowe, and yet could name, and not only that, but said, the woman had, as it were, a litle bigge in her mouth, where the spirite did sucke blood.