A dialogue concerning witches and witchcrafts, part 4 of 8

M. B. I am satisfied touching this point. You were shewing howe the deuils did deale among the heathen out of the Idols, and out of men and women.

Dan. Yea, and they haue subtillie wound themselues in againe among Christians. For vsing witches as their instruments, they make them beléeue that they doe manie harmes sent by them, which they do not, and whereas they haue power giuen them by God to afflict, they will seeme to doe it at the wrath and displeasure of the witch, she must send him, the matter must one way or other appeare, eyther he will séeme euen compelled by force of such as do adiure him, to confesse that such a woman or such a man sent him, or els the witch must confesse so much. Then the people deuise how they may be safe against the witch, there is running to the wisardes to learne what they should doe, to withstand the furie of the witch, that she send not to them, or if she haue sent, how they may expell her spirit, and keép her from sending him againe: this is it which the deuill would haue: for now he vttereth all his wares: he teacheth by these cunning men and women, many horrible abhominations, and foule abuses of the name of God, by which they are made beleeue, that they haue remedie against the deuils sent by the witches, and that they are cured from their harmes.

M. B. I doe not seé how any man can indeéd iustifie, or maintaine, that the spirits which appeare vnto them in the Christall, or in the glasse, or water, or that any way do speake, and shewe matters vnto them, be holy Angels, or the soules of excellent men, as of Moses, Samuel Dauid, and others, though I haue heard that the cunning men, take them to be such, and thinke they deale by them against deuils.

Dan. It is no matter what Satans vassals are made to beleeue by his subtil sleights: it is most abhominable for any Christian man, euer to let it enter into his thought, that they doe any thing by the power or wisdome of the holie Ghost, by any Angel or good spirit, or that they doe any thing against the deuill, which worke by the intelligence which they haue from euill spirits: therfore hold this, that they seeke vnto deuils, which run vnto those southsayers.

M. B. I am perswaded indeed that they seek vnto deuils, but I would see some reason for it out of Gods word.

Dan. Touching all spirituall matters, as to be armed with power against deuils, and to know how to auoid the daungers which they bring, we are no where to seeke, and to learne but of our most blessed Lorde God. And of him we cannot learn, but by his holy word, for in it he hath opened vnto vs all his whole will. And therefore, where the Lorde commaundeth the people of Israell by Moses, Deut. 18. that they should not when they came into the land, learn to do according to the abhominations of those heathen, reckoning vp sundry kinds of such as were Satans instruments, which he vsed to seduce the multitude, by deuinations, by obseruing of times, by augurie, by iuglings with the helpe of the deuill, by vsing familiar Spirits, spirits of deuination, and seéking to the dead: he setteth downe also the remedie, shewing first, that he woulde cast out those nations because they harkened vnto the southsayers, and deuiners, pronouncing that euerie one which doth those things, is an abhomination to the Lorde, willing his people that they should not harken to such, but that they should hearken vnto him: And then Moses saith, A Prophet shall the Lord thy God raise vp vnto thee from among you of thy brethren like vnto me, him shal ye heare.

M. B. Then you prooue by that place, that we muste seéke only to God, and not to such as work by meanes besides his words.

Dan. If you read that place, Deut. 18. and mark euery thinge well, you shall seé it doeth not onely prooue that they seéke vnto Deuilles, which runne to these cunning men and women, because the Prophetes which God hath raysed vp to declare the Lords will, commaund vs not to doe such things: but also declareth that they bee an abhomination to the Lorde that vse them, or that seéke vnto them.

M. B. I seé then it is not onelie a sinne, but a moste horrible sinne, to seéke vnto them. Alas, many do not think that they seéke vnto deuilles, when they goe for helpe vnto them for thinges stollen, or for helpe and remedie against witches.

Dan. No doubt many refuse to hear the voyce of God, to be instructed by him: they despise his word, and therfore they be giuen vp to hearken vnto Deuilles. Such as haue sought vnto any of these that worke by the deuill, and now come to see their offence, ought to shew repentance for the same, not as for a light sinne. It is no small abhomination to goe for helpe vnto the deuill: It is to set him in Gods place, and to honour him as God. It riseth of infidelity and distrust of help from God, as we may see in the example of king Saule, who finding no answere nor comforte from God, whome he had so wickedly disobeyed, went to a witch. The heathen man saide, Flectere si nequeo Superos, Acherontamouebo. If I cannot intreat the goddes, I will downe among the deuils.

M. B. Nay, doubtles there can be no defence made for such seéking help at their hands, which deale with familiar spirits, but I muse at diuers thinges, as this for one, how the cunning men, if they deale by the power of the deuill, should vse such good wordes, and will them that come vnto them to doe all in the name of Christ, teaching them to vse words and sentences of the scriptures.

Dan. O sir, here lieth the deép subtiltie of Satan, how should the people be seduced to follow him, if he should not vse great cunning to couer matters, as if deuils were driuen out, and harmes cured that are done by them, euen through the name and mightie power of God. Herein also lyeth a more foule abhomination, and that is the abusing and horrible prophaning of the most blessed name of God, and the holie Scriptures vnto witcheries, charmes, and coniurations, and vnto all deuillish artes. Such an one is haunted with a fayrie, or a spirit: he must learne a charme compounded of some straunge speaches, and the names of God intermingled, or weare some part of S. Iohns Gospell or such like. So against the thiefe, against the deuill sent by the witch, the like is practized. What can Satan desire more, than that holie thinges should be thus abused, There is adoe to get him into the glasse, to get him into the Chrystall, to get him into the basen of water: there is a doe to binde him, as it were by the name & power of Christ to tell this thing or that thing. The coniurer hee bindeth him with the names of God, and by the vertue of Christes passion and resurrection, & so maketh him serue his turne: And all is his owne worke; for he is not constrayned, nor bound, but séeketh thus to haue God blasphemed. O (sayth the simple man) this is a good woman, shee speaketh of God, and of Christ, and doth all in his name: they be good words which she hath taught me to vse: and what hurt can there be in vsing good wordes? Alas poore man, what case are they in which must learne good words of the deuill? It is not the speaking of good wordes, or the wearing some part of the scriptures, that defendeth from deuils, therein lieth the craft of satan, to haue those holy thinges so foullie abused, […] that men may put trust in wordes and sentences pronounced, but the deuilles are withstood onlie by the power of faith, where the holie scriptures are written in the heart, & the soule armed with the power of them. From this Satan draweth men by his soothsayers, teaching them other helpes: For the naming of God, or the sentences of scripture binde[…] not satan […] wee reade he can vtter them.

M. B. Then howe can the deuill beare such a pitifull minde, as to help those that bee in misery? For many haue helpe by these cunning men. The deuill is cruell and bent wholly to doe hurt, and that is it which perswadeth manie that things are done euen by the power of God.

Dan. The deuils be as pitifull as a greédy hungrie lion that roareth after his pray, and as a fierce Dragon, all burning with wrath and bloody malice: they make shew of doing good vnto men, only of a most cruel and murtherous purpose, euen to draw men deéper into the pit of hell with them. For if they can help the bodie a litle, it is to win both bodie and soule vnto eternall damnation. Where satan offereth his help, it is more to be feared, than where he manifestly impugneth, and seeketh apparantly to hurt.

M. B. But this then is more strange, if they doe not deale by the power of God, but by the power of the deuill, when they driue out deuils from hurting, howe one deuill should driue out another. Our sauiour saith, that satan doth not driue out satan, for then his kingdom should bee deuided and could not stand.

Dan. It is most certaine that satan doth not driue out satan: for our sauiour hath shewed the reason of the contrarie. One deuill is readie to further the worke of another: but in no wise to expel or to hinder one another.

M. B. There is it which maketh me to muse: we seé the deuill driuen out, and doeth not returne againe, and if it be not wrought by the power of deuilles, as you say it cannot, then must it neéds be by the power of God,

Dan. The Deuill is driuen out, neither by the power of the deuill, nor yet by the power of God, in these that are healed by cunning men.

M. B. I like this worst of al the speach which I heard you vtter yet: For if satan be not driuen out neither by the power of satan, not by the power of God, what other power is there to driue him out? If you can shewe a third power to expell him, it is more than euer I heard of.

Dan. There neédeth not a thirde power to expell him, for he is not driuen out at all.

M. B. I told you before, if you denie that to be, which all experience doth shewe, then is it no reasoning. There be examples in many places, and daylie it is seéne, that the deuill is driuen out of some possessed, that where he did vexe and torment men in their bodies, and in their cattle, they haue remedie against him.

Dan. I doe not denie but that some which are possessed and tormented by Satan, haue release: but yet the deuill is not cast foorth by those means, but ceaseth willingly euen to establish men in errour, and in most wicked prophaning of the name of God, and worshipping of himselfe, and so entreth deéper into them.

M. B. I beseéch you let me heare how that is, that you say he ceaseth of his owne accord. Will he let goe his hold willingly and of his owne accord, where he hath it vpon any man? Doth he not desire to doe hurt?

Dan. He doeth not let goe his hold which he hath vpon any man, but indeéd taketh faster holde when hee seémeth to be cast foorth and doth greater hurt: for tell me whose deuise is the coniuration?

M. B. I am out of doubt that coniuration is the deuice of the deuill.

Dan. Then tell me, hath the deuill deuised and taught a way to bind himselfe, or to cast forth himselfe?

M. B. That I suppose he would neuer doe.

Dan. Indeéd if we wil imagine that the deuil is becom an old foole; we may think he wold teach that which should bind and cast foorth himselfe: but the scripture calleth him the old serpent: he deuised and taught coniuration, therefore coniuration doth not cast him foorth. Yet he seémeth to be bound by the cōiurer, yea euen by the name of God, and by the power of the passion of Christ. The coniurer seémeth by the same power to driue him out of a man possessed, whose body he doth vex & torment. And he ceaseth willingly to torment the bodie, to establish coniuration, & so to draw men quite from God, euen to worship and to follow himselfe, and seéke all helpes at his hands. Euen so when men are tormented in their bodies, or plagued in their cattell by the deuill, and seéke vnto the cunning men and women, following the way that they prescribe vnto them, and haue ease in their bodies, and no more harme among their cattell, Satan doth not giue place as forced, but ceaseth to do those bodilie harmes, that he may fullie win vnto himselfe both bodie and soule. If they should not seeme to bee expelled, how should men be drawn to seék help at their handes which deale by him? how should witches and coniurers be drawne on most horriblie to pollute and blaspheme the glorious name of God?

M. B. Then I seé they buy their help deér which haue it at the handes of these cunning men.

Dan. Yea, what can be bought more deare, than that which is with the losse of soule and bodie for euer, by running from God after deuils?

M. B. What shoulde a man thinke then touching all other which deale not with the deuill and yet haue certaine waies to finde out witches, and to vnwitch that which they haue done?

Dan. Although they deale not directly by the deuill, I meane they haue no familiar spirites that speake vnto them yet they deale by deuillish deuises, which are also an abhomination to the Lord. For all those seuerall sortes of witches which the Lord rehearseth, Deut. 18. did not deale directlie with deuils. For some were obseruers of times, which had their luckie dayes and their vnluckie dayes, and so their howers. If they goe to buy or to sell, they choose their hower to set foorth in. Some dealt by the intralles of […]easts, and by the flying of birds, by meeting with an hare, or a foxe, and on which hand, & a thousand such like. Some deal with the Siue and a paire of sheeres, vsing certaine words: Some vse a charme for the tooth ach another for the ague, and for stopping the bleéding at the nose, also their spell for the theéfe, and a thousande such like, when butter will not come, when cheefe will not runne, nor Ale worke in the fatte: These would seeme of all others to haue witches in the greatest detestation, and in the meane time worke by the deuill themselues, and may bee termed witches.

M. B. We doe count them witches which haue their spirits, we doe not take them to be witches, which doe but vse those things which the cunning men haue taught. For they doe not mean to doe any thing by the deuill. Me thinketh therefore it is hard to call them witches.

Dan. Take the name of witchcraft for all that dealeth by the power and deuices of the deuill: No doubt some are more horrible than other of the seuerall sortes of witches, yet the lightest of them be abhominations before the Lord, as we are taught, Deut. 18. and the ignorance doeth not excuse. For what though the witch suppose it is the soule of Moses, which appeareth in his Chrystal, is he not therfore a witch? Your neighbour, whose butter wold not come, which heat a spit red hoat and thrust into the creame, vsing certaine wordes, doth thinke she did by the power of God fray away the deuill, is she not therefore a witch, dealing with that which the deuil, and not God hath taught? Is she not a witch also in seéking help at deuils? They which did burne the cloaths which their child lay in, to know by the burning blacke whether it were bewitched, and to bring the witch thither, dealt altogether by the power and direction of the deuill, & so in scratching, for God hath taught no such things, then are they not witches? By whose instruction, and by whose power was the witch fetched home at the burning of the hair of the butchers sonne you spake of? Was not all done by the power of Satan, and by his instruction? Are not they then which practize the thinges the Disciples of witches, & so indeéd very witches? Those which haue their charmes, and their night spels, what can they be but witches? I might reckon vp her that dealeth with the siue and the sheares, and a number of such trumperies, in all which the most holie name of God is polluted, and if any thing be done, it is done wholly by the effectuall working of Satan. God hath giuen naturall helps, and those we may vse, as from his hand against naturall diseases, but things besides nature he hath not appointed, especiallie, they be ridiculous to driue away deuilles and diseases.

M. B. Now you speak of naturall things, we seé there be great secretes in nature: the Adamant draweth Iron vnto it. And why may there not be some force in these naturall things then?

Dan. No doubt there be great secrets in nature, which the skilfull Physitians, and naturall Philosophers do find out. As the hanging of some thinge about the necke, may haue force to driue away an ague, the wearing of some thing may haue such vertue to deliuer from the cramp, and such like. And from these Satan doeth take occasion to bring in his trumperies, and curious deuises. As because there be secretes in nature, a ring is curiouslie framed according to the signes in the firmament, this is tied to a thread, and let downe into a basen or cup of water, and wil shew great things. Because there be secretes in nature, a horshoo must be heat red hot, and then put into a kettle seéthing vpon the fire to driue away the witches spirite. Also he that hath his cattle bewitched, burneth some liue thing, as hogge or henne, to driue out the deuill. Can these naturall thinges expell deuils? Nay, they play the rancke witches, which burne any thing for to expell deuils: for, hath God taught to doe anie such thing? Doe they burne the thing to God, or is it as a verie burnt sacrifice to the Deuill? In the time of the law burnt sacrifices were offred to God: the deuill among the heathen drewe the like to himself. And now by his sleight he doth after some sort procure the same at their hands, which professe to be Christians, and thus worshipp[…] him, he ceaseth from hurting their bodies, or their cattell, as gaining a greater matter.

M. B. If it be so (as I am not able to gainsay it) then be there multitudes in all places which are guiltie of sorce[…]ie and witchcraft. For I seé many deale in matters by the help and power of the deuill, which are perswaded otherwise. But I meruaile much at diuers things touching the help which men haue by deuils. Let vs conferre a little about them. The deuill doeth know things past, & things present, but God onelie doth know what shall bee done in the time to come. If these cunning men doe deale with no further power, than the power of the deuill, howe can they tell so right what shall come to passe?

Dan. It is peculiar to God alone, to know what shall come to passe hereafter. But the Lord God hath reuealed by his Prophetes, and Apostles many thinges that after should be fulfilled. Satan can giue a nere coniecture when these come to be fulfilled. Hee is a most subtill obseruer of thinges, and will gesse at many: but especially, where hee hath power giuen him to worke and to bring any matter about, he can and will tell it aforehand. Finally, God in his iust iudgement giueth him power to seduce the wicked.

M. B. I pray you open your meaning more fully.

Dan. Uery well: In which haue you any doubt?

M. B. I take it the Deuill gesseth at things which are prophecied, and is a sharpe obseruer of causes. But you said he telleth what shall be, where he worketh that which he foretelleth: giue some example for this.

Dan. There neédeth no better example, than that which you tolde of the Churchwardens that went to the cunning man, to knowe the theefe which had stollen their communion cuppe. It may be sayd, where the cunning man bad them go to such a place, such a night, and at such an hower, and thither shall come he that stole the cup, how could the deuill tell, if it were a night or two after, that he should come to that place, and at that hower? You muste note what power the deuill hath in the mind of a theefe. He stirred him vp to steale the cup. He stirred vp the Churchwardens to seeke to the cunning witch. Hee nameth the place and the time, whether, and when he would moue the heart of the theéfe to come: And at the time appointed heé bringeth him thither, for he that could moue him to steale, could also by secrete suggestion mooue him to goe thither. The deuill told that the witch shuld come home with speéd that had bewitched the butchers son. He that had power in her heart to make her become a witch, did know he should haue power to make her with haste to come home. One carieth somewhat which a sick person hath lien in to the cunning man. He can tell, it seémeth, by the smell of the cloth, whether the deuil hath bene in it (if it smell like his deuill) and so telleth, the partie is bewitched. Take the clothes which the sicke partie hath lien in, and burne them, if they burne blacke, then may you seé it is so, and the witch shall come in while they be a burning. Nowe, if the Lord gaue him power, and he hath striken and tormented the bodie of the sicke person, and if hee haue collourably stirred vp a witch to send him: Is it not an easie matter for him to make the fire burne blacke, and to mooue the witch to come at that present? Or if he haue power for to torment, and hath no witch to sende him, his great desire being to haue men guiltie of innocent blood, is it not as easie by the permission of God which in his iust iudgment giueth him power to seduce such people as will hearken vnto deuils. for him to make the fire burne blacke, or at least to seéme so to them, and to mooue some frowarde suspected woman or other to come in, though she be no witch? A thousande such things hee worketh in, and as a cunning iuggler can compasse and bring them about.